Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Razushu]

But i understand what you're saying. Also, on SMN Melee debate, I think Dallas is probably smart enough to know what NMs to stand back on, and what NMs to melee on.

I would hope so and this is probably true but the way he advocates it and the language he uses gives the very strong impression that he's saying "Melee or GTFO urdoinitwrong!"

Also that there are probably few mobs that would risk 1-shotting a SMN with Stoneskin and Earthern Armor up.

True but most of the time an NM will still hit a SMN hard enough with Stoneskin on to make them regret being in range. I've been rare though it is 1-shot by mobs with a full stoneskin and full health before so it does happen. Admittedly I'm a Taru but What would 1-shot a Taru SMN would leave a Galka SMN in low orange to red probably which is still undesirable. Earthen Armor is a waste of a Ward if your the only one that needs it and if the melees need it for the party to be successful this is probably not a NM that is SMN melee friendly.

[Kisuke]

It seems to me that part of the very versatility enjoyed by SMN and mentioned on every summoner argument thread is the thorn in the side of those evokers who want to approximate other jobs in performance. How best to buff a job that has access to almost all buffs in the game, most of the cures, most of the nukes, etc? Could it be that SE sweats this as well but knows how quickly things could go overboard?

I'm not a summoner, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but had a couple ideas I was flirting with, Stances and Specialization.

You can make the argument that each individual summon (be it spirit or avatar) is its own stance, because it excludes abilities not inherent to that pet. Still, summoners can switch between them rather quickly, losing little but the Avatar's Favor effect - which as mentioned is a bit of a mess of popular vs unpopular buffs. Why not put more emphasis on the summoner? Give 'em a set of heavy-recast "stances" that would focus their summons but make them more limited in other areas. Of course, this would be stealing the entire job concept of the Scholar~

As long as we're borrowing from other jobs, how about a wild re-envisioning akin to Blue Magic points wherein a growing summoner can specialize into particular roles or affinity with their avatars? Imagine: 1 Evocation Concentration point for every 10 points in Summoning skill. A whole category of Merit Category 1 type boosts. Become the Spirit Master by lowering their recast timer and boosting their spell potency! Ravage your enemies with combat avatars pumped up with extra haste and double attack! Put on a funny hat and pretend to be a white mage by boosting potency of defensive buffs and avatar cures!

Actually, that sounds like a lot of fun, for at least the first month until someone figures out the 'right' way to spec and everyone follows that. Guess it's an MMO, can't be helped. Thoughts?

[Malamasala]

meh. not entirely correct but not exactly wrong. only light spirit comes with different modes, for which its buffing mode is indeed 1/2 its regular casting time. light spirit also has its unique healing mode triggered by low hp. and you can direct who you want light spirit to buff (in buff mode) by facing it at any alliance members.
using assault/retreat simply resets the timer, and this is something you can actually use to your advantage when they start casting AM because you can prematurely reset it before the spell actually casts.

My theory is actually impossible to prove wrong. But there are other theories that work just as well, they are just not as logical.

If you summon a fresh spirit and catch aggro, they'll cast in exactly half time. This means that either you summon spirits in offensive mode at half initial recast, or they are summoned in buff mode with max recast. There is no reason SE would set "create new spirit with half timer" as code, opposed to the likelihood they put it as "create new spirit with max timer". Considering elemental behavior is buff mode or attack mode, all evidence point at similar for spirits.

You can also retreat a non-light spirit, then claim a monster to trigger aggro protection, and see if it takes half or full time to attack. If it resets their only attack recast, it will be full time. If they are in fact in buff mode as I predict, they'd cast in half time. (I believe I tested this, but I forgot so can't claim this as true)

Another option is to wait 10 seconds after your light spirit buffs you, and claim a monster. Light spirit should cast a nuke within the same time span as he would if you had let him stay and buff you. It's timer is the buff timer until it has cast one spell or is told to assault.

Everything about this behavior fits with my theory. But I will admit that you can make up excuses that could also be true. Like pets being summoned with half their casting time (except light spirit which is summoned in buff mode with full? seems like random programming in that case, instead of a logical one)

[Arciel]

My theory is actually impossible to prove wrong. But there are other theories that work just as well, they are just not as logical.

If you summon a fresh spirit and catch aggro, they'll cast in exactly half time. This means that either you summon spirits in offensive mode at half initial recast, or they are summoned in buff mode with max recast. There is no reason SE would set "create new spirit with half timer" as code, opposed to the likelihood they put it as "create new spirit with max timer". Considering elemental behavior is buff mode or attack mode, all evidence point at similar for spirits.

You can also retreat a non-light spirit, then claim a monster to trigger aggro protection, and see if it takes half or full time to attack. If it resets their only attack recast, it will be full time. If they are in fact in buff mode as I predict, they'd cast in half time. (I believe I tested this, but I forgot so can't claim this as true)

Another option is to wait 10 seconds after your light spirit buffs you, and claim a monster. Light spirit should cast a nuke within the same time span as he would if you had let him stay and buff you. It's timer is the buff timer until it has cast one spell or is told to assault.

Everything about this behavior fits with my theory. But I will admit that you can make up excuses that could also be true. Like pets being summoned with half their casting time (except light spirit which is summoned in buff mode with full? seems like random programming in that case, instead of a logical one)

hence my statement that it is neither correct nor wrong.
we both understand them to work in pretty much the exact same way but choose to express this in different terms.

the one consensus we can come together upon is probably the fact that whether it be your theory or mine, both prove that spirits are outdated in spell repertoire, unreliable by design and can be very random (esp water/wind/dark), making them nigh useless in a SMNs arsenal.

At present, apart from Light Spirit which can be used to crank out a few buffs in the absence of RDM/WHM/SCH, all other spirits serve no real purpose to players other than for Elemental Siphon, and in desperation for 2 spells within the elemental wheel capable of proccing grellow.

[Anewie]

My SMN was/is useless in party or serious situations.

Don't get it twisted, SMN is amazing for duo/trio/solo. There is no doubt in that, but the job is incredibly lackluster if you have any other jobs and you're playing in partty situations. I had RDM,WHM,BLM,BRD 90.. If my pt need buffs, ill come RDM OR BRD. If they need heals, WHM sup. If they need DD... BLM FTW. SMN can do most of these things but not nearly good enough to warrant playing it for versatility if you have the other job counter parts. In factm i recall saying in LS i'd come smn a few times and people would lol and say they didnt care. Reason is, smn is kinda a joke job in groups.


Not saying SMN should be turned into a full on dd or buffer/healer, just the bp timer needs to GTFO. I dont think ittle break the job or the game. If you're gonna spam bps, ull run outta mp hella quick even in abyssea.

[RAIST]

My SMN was/is useless in party or serious situations.

--------------------------------

Reason is, smn is kinda a joke job in groups.

This post is a pretty good example of how misunderstood SMN is. When I've gone on SMN, it has always been benificial too the group--whether it's a duo, all the way up to an alliance. I remember when we were first farming the caturea (sp), many times it was the avatar keeping the bleeding thing busy while the "tanks" were recovering from weakness. When fighting a lot of NM's, it is the avatars taking a beating while the rest of the group is recovering from a serious beating (sometimes even a full wipe). When it has been club or staff for proc, more often than not, it has been the SMN that got it. When we are needing to get TE's, I am often the one running around and grabbing/holding ephemerals for the mages to get magic kill (or I simply kill them if we want to boost pearl. If we were after KI/feet....I'd amber kill them with my staff.

And that's just abyssea. There are sooooo many examples where the SMN has secured the win--CoP, TAU, ACP, BCNM's.....there is a LONG list of strategies where SMN has been a proven asset.

[Arciel]

agreed. SMN is hardly a joke job in groups. If may only appear this way because most strats prefer to avoid incorporating SMN into the strat because of its biggest weakness - speed.

SMN can do most anything with proper consideration of strategy, but it can be hella slow - and most players would want to maximize their time in game and get things done faster. They thus don't apply SMN into the mix unless they have to.
However, as slow as it may be, the SMN approach can also end up being the safest, which is why you have all sorts of strategies that utilize SMN for its safety and success rate as mentioned above.

as such, if anything were to really improve or 'fix' SMN from its current state into greater playability, it'd have everything to do with the BP timer, because its really the only thing that is holding us back.

my suggestions:

1) reduce the default BP recast. Base of 45s would probably be a good enough adjustment, if we consider that BP reduction gear can lower this (if we use the existing numeric value cap) to 30s.
For greater effect, could even do with a base of 30s, with gear able to lower this to 15s. This would move SMN damage speed into a totally different range, which is actually fine since it won't be sustainable with limited MP pools.

OR

2) have BP recast vary according to the BP being used.
They could set this as a static value (like say Claw on Garuda giving BP: Rage a 10s recast if its used, but P.Claws giving a 45s recast) - this system is already used for Waltzes.
OR they could set this as a dynamic value based on the relative level that the BP is obtained and the current level of the player, especially for Rage BPs. Like say every 5 levels above a BP you are gives you a reduction of 5 seconds from the BP recast until you hit a base of 5seconds. (so in such a case, lv70 BP would be 40s for Lv90, 35 seconds for Lv95, before taking into account gear). Astral Flow BPs could always be capped at maximum timer to prevent abuse (need MP anyway).

OR

3) a mixture of both. Have base timer at like 45s, implement dynamic recast timers - allow players to be able to mix up using lower damage BPs more frequently or higher damage ones less frequently. Either way would be faster than it already is and it'd be up to the SMN to manage his own MP before it runs out.
Dynamic recast timers doesn't have to affect Ward BPs because the timers on those are actually fine as is, and effectiveness of ward pacts doesn't follow the same usability relationship that rage BPs have in proportion to level.

..this way it doesn't exactly change what we can do, because what we can do is fine. but how fast we can do it would be vastly improved.

[Malamasala]

2) have BP recast vary according to the BP being used.

I've been kind of into this before, since it, with good numbers, would mean things like use healing ruby, wait 10 seconds on recast, then use meteor, wait 30 seconds, swap to Garuda and do predator claws and wait 45 seconds etc.

I think this is the only suggestion that keeps a global timer that could work. In all other cases it will just be a direct DD boost, and that is like saying "All jobs needs to do 9999 damage before balance is achieved". I prefer SMN being weaker, but it should be more versatile with its pact selection.

Dynamic recast timers doesn't have to affect Ward BPs because the timers on those are actually fine as is, and effectiveness of ward pacts doesn't follow the same usability relationship that rage BPs have in proportion to level.

Obviously you never use dispel or slowga. Those are two pacts that due to their long global recast are never used. Wards would also need specialized recasts. Like dispel really should be 5 seconds recast on Fenrir.

I'm sure the wards you think are fine, are the ones that are fine and you are using. Hastega, Earthen Armor and such. But we do have plenty pacts we don't use just because they aren't fine.

[Arciel]

Obviously you never use dispel or slowga. Those are two pacts that due to their long global recast are never used. Wards would also need specialized recasts. Like dispel really should be 5 seconds recast on Fenrir.

I'm sure the wards you think are fine, are the ones that are fine and you are using. Hastega, Earthen Armor and such. But we do have plenty pacts we don't use just because they aren't fine.

And this is obvious how?

A lot more ward BPs are fine on the current timer than they aren't. I just mentioned they probably don't need tweaking because trying to figure out suitable recasts on them wasn't really worth the time hypothesizing just for a suggestion.
5 second recast on Fenrir's Roar would be useful yes, but 5 second recast on Healing Ruby 1 is pretty broken. Also there are other prevailing reasons than global recasts that they aren't being used.
As a simple yardstick ward debuffs could probably use timer reductions, ward buffs don't need it.

But its just a suggestion anyway, no need to get your panties in a twist about it.

..as for global timers, SMN isn't the only job stuck with global timers, but is the only one to mainly rely on 2 of them.
COR is next in line, PUP mage automatons suffer the same fate, DNC have a bunch of global timers that they are made to work with...

but mainly, SMNs original single global timer was the result of bad design and a relic of a past where the devs knew almost absolutely nothing about MMORPG game balance - this wasn't too long ago from when BST Charm was 5minutes (and crits could uncharm pets), Astral Flow lasted like 30s and didn't reduce perp to 0, the standard set of avatars couldn't be obtained unless you had a lv50+ job, avatar acc/m.acc was worthless, etc.

Can't say the job hasn't come a long way since, but in terms of speed its definitely fallen behind even further now

[Malamasala]

Speaking of recasts on global timers though, I've always wondered why SE gave only SMN a global spell timer. COR came close with a global roll timer and a global quick draw timer. But paying 0 MP to buff and only being able to put up 2 buffs it didn't really matter so much with having a global recast on it. Quick Draw would be the odd one, considering NIN can elemental wheel rotate for gil, but CORs can't.

In a similar fashion I would have almost expected BLU to have global recasts also. You learn some pretty strong moves, and you are a melee job, and yet they got the spells on separate timers. If you change spells though, I hear you have a long cool down on all of them.

But for example, why can BLU spam head butt for stun, but SMN can't spam Ramuh's low level shock strike? The only difference is hate to pet or hate to BLU. So one has to assume the reason we have global recast is because hate goes to the pets.... but can you really claim it such a huge advantage to get hate for 75 damage to the avatar for shock strike, that it warrants a 60 sec global recast?

If you ask me personally, global recasts don't even need to exist until like level 50+ when one in theory could spam 400 damage pacts. And even if you give those moderate recast (maybe 20 sec?) it wouldn't be all that massive damage hate free anyway.

As far as I can see, the only reason global recast even exists, is that SE thought it was a funny gimmick that would be fresh and new to the game. If only they had taken a moment to consider if it would be fun playing with it.