Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Razushu]

But i understand what you're saying. Also, on SMN Melee debate, I think Dallas is probably smart enough to know what NMs to stand back on, and what NMs to melee on.

I would hope so and this is probably true but the way he advocates it and the language he uses gives the very strong impression that he's saying "Melee or GTFO urdoinitwrong!"

Also that there are probably few mobs that would risk 1-shotting a SMN with Stoneskin and Earthern Armor up.

True but most of the time an NM will still hit a SMN hard enough with Stoneskin on to make them regret being in range. I've been rare though it is 1-shot by mobs with a full stoneskin and full health before so it does happen. Admittedly I'm a Taru but What would 1-shot a Taru SMN would leave a Galka SMN in low orange to red probably which is still undesirable. Earthen Armor is a waste of a Ward if your the only one that needs it and if the melees need it for the party to be successful this is probably not a NM that is SMN melee friendly.

[Kisuke]

It seems to me that part of the very versatility enjoyed by SMN and mentioned on every summoner argument thread is the thorn in the side of those evokers who want to approximate other jobs in performance. How best to buff a job that has access to almost all buffs in the game, most of the cures, most of the nukes, etc? Could it be that SE sweats this as well but knows how quickly things could go overboard?

I'm not a summoner, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but had a couple ideas I was flirting with, Stances and Specialization.

You can make the argument that each individual summon (be it spirit or avatar) is its own stance, because it excludes abilities not inherent to that pet. Still, summoners can switch between them rather quickly, losing little but the Avatar's Favor effect - which as mentioned is a bit of a mess of popular vs unpopular buffs. Why not put more emphasis on the summoner? Give 'em a set of heavy-recast "stances" that would focus their summons but make them more limited in other areas. Of course, this would be stealing the entire job concept of the Scholar~

As long as we're borrowing from other jobs, how about a wild re-envisioning akin to Blue Magic points wherein a growing summoner can specialize into particular roles or affinity with their avatars? Imagine: 1 Evocation Concentration point for every 10 points in Summoning skill. A whole category of Merit Category 1 type boosts. Become the Spirit Master by lowering their recast timer and boosting their spell potency! Ravage your enemies with combat avatars pumped up with extra haste and double attack! Put on a funny hat and pretend to be a white mage by boosting potency of defensive buffs and avatar cures!

Actually, that sounds like a lot of fun, for at least the first month until someone figures out the 'right' way to spec and everyone follows that. Guess it's an MMO, can't be helped. Thoughts?

[Malamasala]

meh. not entirely correct but not exactly wrong. only light spirit comes with different modes, for which its buffing mode is indeed 1/2 its regular casting time. light spirit also has its unique healing mode triggered by low hp. and you can direct who you want light spirit to buff (in buff mode) by facing it at any alliance members.
using assault/retreat simply resets the timer, and this is something you can actually use to your advantage when they start casting AM because you can prematurely reset it before the spell actually casts.

My theory is actually impossible to prove wrong. But there are other theories that work just as well, they are just not as logical.

If you summon a fresh spirit and catch aggro, they'll cast in exactly half time. This means that either you summon spirits in offensive mode at half initial recast, or they are summoned in buff mode with max recast. There is no reason SE would set "create new spirit with half timer" as code, opposed to the likelihood they put it as "create new spirit with max timer". Considering elemental behavior is buff mode or attack mode, all evidence point at similar for spirits.

You can also retreat a non-light spirit, then claim a monster to trigger aggro protection, and see if it takes half or full time to attack. If it resets their only attack recast, it will be full time. If they are in fact in buff mode as I predict, they'd cast in half time. (I believe I tested this, but I forgot so can't claim this as true)

Another option is to wait 10 seconds after your light spirit buffs you, and claim a monster. Light spirit should cast a nuke within the same time span as he would if you had let him stay and buff you. It's timer is the buff timer until it has cast one spell or is told to assault.

Everything about this behavior fits with my theory. But I will admit that you can make up excuses that could also be true. Like pets being summoned with half their casting time (except light spirit which is summoned in buff mode with full? seems like random programming in that case, instead of a logical one)

[Fyreus]

I just trioed Nyzul with THF, RDM (healer), SMN. There's nothing wrong with our damage outside of Abyssea.

Using the word 'damage' is a bit vague when dealing with you :/ I'm talking about avatars (hence the AF3+2 body reference) and not beating up somewhat EP mobs. If i were to compare smn+avatar damage to my blu or drk or even rng then we'd be debating punch buggys to G4s but i'm talking about the steady damage over time, healing over time, and buff boosts that are slightly outside of our reach. No i'm not being mean or attacking but the fact is our avatars are all blm except for 1 and he's not wearing any +str/dmg.

[Arciel]

My theory is actually impossible to prove wrong. But there are other theories that work just as well, they are just not as logical.

If you summon a fresh spirit and catch aggro, they'll cast in exactly half time. This means that either you summon spirits in offensive mode at half initial recast, or they are summoned in buff mode with max recast. There is no reason SE would set "create new spirit with half timer" as code, opposed to the likelihood they put it as "create new spirit with max timer". Considering elemental behavior is buff mode or attack mode, all evidence point at similar for spirits.

You can also retreat a non-light spirit, then claim a monster to trigger aggro protection, and see if it takes half or full time to attack. If it resets their only attack recast, it will be full time. If they are in fact in buff mode as I predict, they'd cast in half time. (I believe I tested this, but I forgot so can't claim this as true)

Another option is to wait 10 seconds after your light spirit buffs you, and claim a monster. Light spirit should cast a nuke within the same time span as he would if you had let him stay and buff you. It's timer is the buff timer until it has cast one spell or is told to assault.

Everything about this behavior fits with my theory. But I will admit that you can make up excuses that could also be true. Like pets being summoned with half their casting time (except light spirit which is summoned in buff mode with full? seems like random programming in that case, instead of a logical one)

hence my statement that it is neither correct nor wrong.
we both understand them to work in pretty much the exact same way but choose to express this in different terms.

the one consensus we can come together upon is probably the fact that whether it be your theory or mine, both prove that spirits are outdated in spell repertoire, unreliable by design and can be very random (esp water/wind/dark), making them nigh useless in a SMNs arsenal.

At present, apart from Light Spirit which can be used to crank out a few buffs in the absence of RDM/WHM/SCH, all other spirits serve no real purpose to players other than for Elemental Siphon, and in desperation for 2 spells within the elemental wheel capable of proccing grellow.

[Dallas]

Using the word 'damage' is a bit vague when dealing with you :/ I'm talking about avatars (hence the AF3+2 body reference) and not beating up somewhat EP mobs. If i were to compare smn+avatar damage to my blu or drk or even rng then we'd be debating punch buggys to G4s but i'm talking about the steady damage over time, healing over time, and buff boosts that are slightly outside of our reach. No i'm not being mean or attacking but the fact is our avatars are all blm except for 1 and he's not wearing any +str/dmg.

When I talk damage, I'm talking about every action that results in reducing the HP of the mob. Nothing at all vague about that. There are 4 sources of damage: avatar melee, avatar BPs, avatar buffs, SMN melee. If you don't melee with SMN, put a big 0 there. If you think your avatar is a weak BLM, put a big 0 on both avatar melee and buffs. Your choices make your damage tiny and insignificant.

[Anewie]

Isn't Dallas the melee SMN or GTFO guy? I don't think anybody needs to mention melee tools to get him talking about it

Notice your post has no likes and the OPs has 9.

You make solid points, but theyre not very good ones.
Summoner is a weak job and always has been. Idk if youve played as long as me, but for the first 3-4 years it was basically just a gimp whm with pred claws. It's changed a lot since then, but this job is not a solid one. SMNs are only semi-ok at everything and that's a problem imo.

Idk what parties you play in these days, but smn buffs imo are prett much lol and you would be better off coming another job if thats your main focus. If your main focus is dd, ud also be better off coming a dd job. This is true for other jobs, but smn is probably the worst job at being OK at everything (cures,buffs,dd). It's trumped by every job it can assist in and so much in such a way that playing smn outside duo/trio type situations when you have other jobs is pretty much a strain.


This job needs an extreme decrease n bp timer or to remove it entirely. I think bp timers should either be 10-15seconds MAX or nothing at all. That would really make the job damn good and without gamebreaking. Why? Because the bps are so mp costly, outside abyssea. smns will actually have to worry about mp conservment with lower/no timers.

You're right about some things, but you're giving smn way too much credit and i'd bet you don't play it often or at all.

just my two cents, cause no one who is a career smn or loves playing smn in party situations would share this opinion. This job needs change. Badly.

[Anewie]

My SMN was/is useless in party or serious situations.

Don't get it twisted, SMN is amazing for duo/trio/solo. There is no doubt in that, but the job is incredibly lackluster if you have any other jobs and you're playing in partty situations. I had RDM,WHM,BLM,BRD 90.. If my pt need buffs, ill come RDM OR BRD. If they need heals, WHM sup. If they need DD... BLM FTW. SMN can do most of these things but not nearly good enough to warrant playing it for versatility if you have the other job counter parts. In factm i recall saying in LS i'd come smn a few times and people would lol and say they didnt care. Reason is, smn is kinda a joke job in groups.


Not saying SMN should be turned into a full on dd or buffer/healer, just the bp timer needs to GTFO. I dont think ittle break the job or the game. If you're gonna spam bps, ull run outta mp hella quick even in abyssea.

[Razushu]

Notice your post has no likes and the OPs has 9.

You make solid points, but theyre not very good ones.
Summoner is a weak job and always has been. Idk if youve played as long as me, but for the first 3-4 years it was basically just a gimp whm with pred claws. It's changed a lot since then, but this job is not a solid one. SMNs are only semi-ok at everything and that's a problem imo.

Idk what parties you play in these days, but smn buffs imo are prett much lol and you would be better off coming another job if thats your main focus. If your main focus is dd, ud also be better off coming a dd job. This is true for other jobs, but smn is probably the worst job at being OK at everything (cures,buffs,dd). It's trumped by every job it can assist in and so much in such a way that playing smn outside duo/trio type situations when you have other jobs is pretty much a strain.


This job needs an extreme decrease n bp timer or to remove it entirely. I think bp timers should either be 10-15seconds MAX or nothing at all. That would really make the job damn good and without gamebreaking. Why? Because the bps are so mp costly, outside abyssea. smns will actually have to worry about mp conservment with lower/no timers.

You're right about some things, but you're giving smn way too much credit and i'd bet you don't play it often or at all.

just my two cents, cause no one who is a career smn or loves playing smn in party situations would share this opinion. This job needs change. Badly.

SMN is my main, my only 90 and the thing I do best in this game lol.

you whooshed me with the likes thing the OP addresses several issues with SMN which was always gonna get likes and I'm debating that melee SMN isn't the best way to play SMN.

SMN is far from a weak job we're in need of a boost definitely but if you care about the job it can be a great asset to the party we're something rare in ffxi we're an allrounder job that can do anything ok and can fill more than one role that a time while being autonomous within the party i.e we're a spike DD that the tank doesn't need to cover and the WHM will never need to heal if we're being careful.

SMN buffs may be lol in your opinion but it's hard to argue with a 5 minute AoE haste for a quite low price if 3+ people get it and thats just for starters. SMN works best if you don't have a main focus if I'm in a party I'm PCing every 45 seconds keeping hastega up fulltime and adding as many buffs as I can manage and keeping them up as much as possible. Top this off with the utility of /SCH, I find myself DDing Buffing filling in gaps that form in the party i.e sleeping adds if blm is mid cast helping remove Debuffs or waking slept pt members(accession FTW) seeing how my SMN is immune to sleep unless sublimation is down or fully charged or my avatar dies as i run in to BP and a sleepga goes off(which is rare).
Sure we don't add as much damage as a WAR or as good buffs as a BRD but we can do both at the same time and hate free and we still have some free time to assist anywhere it's needed.

My SMN was/is useless in party or serious situations.

Don't get it twisted, SMN is amazing for duo/trio/solo. There is no doubt in that, but the job is incredibly lackluster if you have any other jobs and you're playing in partty situations. I had RDM,WHM,BLM,BRD 90.. If my pt need buffs, ill come RDM OR BRD. If they need heals, WHM sup. If they need DD... BLM FTW. SMN can do most of these things but not nearly good enough to warrant playing it for versatility if you have the other job counter parts. In factm i recall saying in LS i'd come smn a few times and people would lol and say they didnt care. Reason is, smn is kinda a joke job in groups.

True SMN can shine extremely brightly solo or lowman because SMN is an allrounder and isn't buff dependant to perform well. But if you start buffing a party as well as DDing you're already adding alot to the party. I've haven't found my SMN lacking in contribution since I hit level 75. SMN does everything well not as good as a specialist but good enough to earn my place at the table been a SMN for 3years now and never heard the phrase "lolsmn" in reference to me. A good SMN can bring alot to a group and versatility is our strength. I may not nuke as hard as a BLM but I'm buffing at the same time, I may not Buff as well as a BRD but I'm nuking at the same time and while I can't touch WHM for healing power I'm nuking and Buffing while I'm support healing.

I agree with you 100% that BP delay needs a big change it would make SMN much more efficient and something 30 would be great but not Over Powered.

[RAIST]

My SMN was/is useless in party or serious situations.

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Reason is, smn is kinda a joke job in groups.

This post is a pretty good example of how misunderstood SMN is. When I've gone on SMN, it has always been benificial too the group--whether it's a duo, all the way up to an alliance. I remember when we were first farming the caturea (sp), many times it was the avatar keeping the bleeding thing busy while the "tanks" were recovering from weakness. When fighting a lot of NM's, it is the avatars taking a beating while the rest of the group is recovering from a serious beating (sometimes even a full wipe). When it has been club or staff for proc, more often than not, it has been the SMN that got it. When we are needing to get TE's, I am often the one running around and grabbing/holding ephemerals for the mages to get magic kill (or I simply kill them if we want to boost pearl. If we were after KI/feet....I'd amber kill them with my staff.

And that's just abyssea. There are sooooo many examples where the SMN has secured the win--CoP, TAU, ACP, BCNM's.....there is a LONG list of strategies where SMN has been a proven asset.