Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Arciel]

The vision is an interesting thing and frankly that part that you guys are gripping to it just to prove Dallas wrong is frankly frightening. Summoning an avatar and standing there pretty and watching between timers? Does that really sound like fun to you? Please, give me a more active role SE. Give me abilities/spells to use on my avatars, give me more things to do that just "sit back and enjoy the show".

What useless dribble. Frankly I'll never "sit back and enjoy the show" ever.... EVER on smn. The only time I do that is when I'm a corpse on the ground without reraise. There's always something to do, be it swing my staff on the mob's head, monitor my timers, or cure my companions. The heck is this mentality and you guys are embracing this as the sure fire way to go? Just to prove Dallas wrong?

What happened to the summoners while I was gone for a year?

While I think that Dallas' heads on melee only strategy isn't the exact way to go, the middle ground between him and standing back surely is. I do take my staff out and melee next to my avatar and it certainly does help.

I think you are quite mistaken. Dallas is the one who is gripping to his idea that melee-mage SMN is the right way to play and that everyone else is doing it wrong. Clearly, we know this has always been incorrect, and SE's vision here is an affirmation of what we as a community know to be true about our job - the main source of whatever a SMN is capable of doing is always the avatar.
And thus, this manifesto validates my assertion that SMN is a job which is process oriented, not function.

Now, do understand that this being a manifesto, represents what SE wants, and not necessarily what we already have - and this shows quite clearly in their vision for certain jobs that doesn't match their current state, but definitely not with SMN.

I wouldn't be one to take their wording too literally. To "sit back and enjoy the show" to me is where I can do as I please as a master to my avatar - it doesn't necessarily mean doing nothing entirely, but you could be casting magic on allies, debuffing or even meleeing if the situation permits. It's not like anyone really runs back and /sits either.
Point is, you don't have to do anything in between to do your job well - anything of that sort is dessert and not the main course.

Interesting that you guys ignored this part:

Example Adjustments
A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.

If nothing else, it means that using a staff like my Hvergelmir will mean more meleeing for more mp for shorting BPs for more damage/wards. One could postulate on a number of ways this works. Will it be an ability you use once with a cooldown?

Will it be a "mode" you activate like favor that you can stay in for a while?
Example: You blood pact, and then you could immediately issue a new one right away for a GREATLY increased cost that goes down as your timer ticks towards the end of what would be your normal BP timer (45 seconds assuming you geared it) until it cost normal mp. OR that just allows you to toss off another BP maybe every 10 seconds for that greatly increased cost?

This seems to me like it will be a stance instead of a one-time effect, and is something that myself and a bunch of other SMNs I know have theorized to imagine if it would work out well.

The underlying issue such a JA would be addressing is that SMN is a slow job - constantly being locked into slow-burn mode. Unlike other jobs, it really can't force out its actions in a pressing situation to speed things up - and this is its greatest weakness.

With a 'speed stance', it'd at least give us the option to do something of that sort, but at a cost we're willing to bear.

Even if MP cost for BPs were doubled, but timers reduced to like 20s (and further reduced to 5s by eq), being able to crap out 4-5 BPs in a short period of time would be well worth the trade-off and opens SMN up to a whole different set of strategies.

As for MP to cope with the increased BP cost, a Hvergelmir doing Myrkr is but one solution to the issue. But players without it won't exactly not be able to cope. Same goes for /RDM and Convert and popping ethers to keep you going.
And on the flipside, even if you had these tools, you won't necessarily be able to cope either.

What will happen is that SMNs will now have an option to throw out a lot more damage in a short time at the risk of having to spend time recovering their MP after the fact - which hopefully opens SMN up to being more zerg friendly. If the situation doesn't require full speed on BPing, practising restraint would likely be enough to help you last the battle without additional sources of MP.

Thats what managing MP is about.

If this is the case, Dallas could have quite an important point here. What do I care if I blow my entire load of MP in a few BPs if I can get all of it back with a sekkanoki WS or a few back-to-back normal Myrky? Ponder this for a moment if you will. While contrary to the "vision" SE stated, the very mention of this ability + the Emp. weapon they gave us directly contradict this.

Once again, not true, because in this case you are assuming that Myrkr is the only decent way to regain MP for SMN. A ton of options exist that can be used effectively alone or in a party. Also, unless you've got yourself some serious Regain or Wings going you'd also have to assume that you're able to melee the mob, which also isn't the case on end-game level mobs.

On easy stuff you can solo, I'd agree the Myrkr would in fact be the best option, however, you probably don't need to use that stance either.

There are far too many factors still to deal with before you can start tossing SE's vision at anyone as a weapon or a defense. Until they give more update details I would hold back slinging any more arrows and stones and wait to see what these new abilities and what Atomos and Cait Sith will be. They could be two MP free avatars we get to "sit back and watch" do things. Would it be tragic... if we summoned them out and couldn't pull our staves out or cast any spells with them summoned? Only BP and and use JA?

This would fall right inline with that vision yes? Careful what you wish for.

Not quite. The vision encompasses all aspects of the job, even the parts that are already included now. Two new avatars that function in a totally different way wouldn't, and from past record (with Odin and Alexander), hasn't changed any of that.

For that to happen, they'd need to overhaul the existing mechanics of the job, which is something that has never happened in the 9 year history of FFXI. One would believe not only would it be a stupid thing to do at this point in the games life, its also too much of a hassle to even bother.

[Dallas]

This wall of text brought to you by Arciel: the anti-melee SMN begging for a Hvergelmir just in case. It's a shame KI died.

[Malamasala]

Mala, you need to assume that Myrkr was not an accident. Sure, our new and improved WS deals no damage, but it gives a truckload of MP that allows you to "sit back and enjoy the show." It's a much different view from the top of the food chain.

You have to think as twistedly as SE to know what they are doing. My bet is that they added TP from nukes to SCH and BLM and thought "Now they need to convert the TP back to MP!" and gave us Myrkr. I could almost promise you that SMN was the last job they had on their mind when adding Myrkr.

SMN has a long history of benefiting from stuff SE overlooked, rather than the direct updates.

[Arciel]

This wall of text brought to you by Arciel: the anti-melee SMN begging for a Hvergelmir just in case. It's a shame KI died.

this coming from the melee mage who is begging for everyone to believe that he's right. whether I have a Hvergelmir or not doesn't change the fact that you're full of fail, Craftermath.

[Razushu]

Mala, you need to assume that Myrkr was not an accident. Sure, our new and improved WS deals no damage, but it gives a truckload of MP that allows you to "sit back and enjoy the show." It's a much different view from the top of the food chain.

I hold back. Why? Because my avatar can't keep up. I use a bunch of -enmity to allow my avatar a 60% damage discrepancy. What happens if I can spend more MP to increase my avatar's damage by 60%? I stop holding back and my MP goes up even more.

Everyone hates BP timers, but almost no one values MP management. SE released an emp staff that is 5-7x more powerful than Convert, and yet the loudest voice in these forums argues that MP has no value anymore. I proposed a solution: make SMN more powerful, but make it cost so much mp that only the best SMN can ever achieve it. It's almost like SE reads these forums.

I can't lose. I applaud SE.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post106169

Like you've ever seen the top of the food chain, No one is hurting for MP(maybe you on any number of non-exp mobs you can't melee). I have unlimited MP as is and I've yet to level /RDM adding convert and refresh and I've yet to finish my +2 AF3 which I could do easily enough. Even if this doubled the BP cost no one is going to suddenly find themselves low on MP anyway, peddle your myuths someplace else

[Neonii]

Mala, you need to assume that Myrkr was not an accident. Sure, our new and improved WS deals no damage, but it gives a truckload of MP that allows you to "sit back and enjoy the show." It's a much different view from the top of the food chain.

I hold back. Why? Because my avatar can't keep up. I use a bunch of -enmity to allow my avatar a 60% damage discrepancy. What happens if I can spend more MP to increase my avatar's damage by 60%? I stop holding back and my MP goes up even more.

Everyone hates BP timers, but almost no one values MP management. SE released an emp staff that is 5-7x more powerful than Convert, and yet the loudest voice in these forums argues that MP has no value anymore. I proposed a solution: make SMN more powerful, but make it cost so much mp that only the best SMN can ever achieve it. It's almost like SE reads these forums.

I can't lose. I applaud SE.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post106169

That would not be cool. Average smn should be able to achieve anything smn has to offer. I don't believe game designers should design anything with a vision to exclude folks. Everyone from the most powerful to the weakest link should have access to smn abilities. Sure for the best smn maybe some token edge but I would not adocate designs especially to exclude folks.

[Razushu]

That would not be cool. Average smn should be able to achieve anything smn has to offer. I don't believe game designers should design anything with a vision to exclude folks. Everyone from the most powerful to the weakest link should have access to smn abilities. Sure for the best smn maybe some token edge but I would not adocate designs especially to exclude folks.

Don't mind Dallas he thinks everyone should act as he does, and will desperatley cling to anything he feels would push someone in the same direction as he's following

[Korpg]

Mala, you need to assume that Myrkr was not an accident. Sure, our new and improved WS deals no damage, but it gives a truckload of MP that allows you to "sit back and enjoy the show." It's a much different view from the top of the food chain.

I hold back. Why? Because my avatar can't keep up. I use a bunch of -enmity to allow my avatar a 60% damage discrepancy. What happens if I can spend more MP to increase my avatar's damage by 60%? I stop holding back and my MP goes up even more.

Everyone hates BP timers, but almost no one values MP management. SE released an emp staff that is 5-7x more powerful than Convert, and yet the loudest voice in these forums argues that MP has no value anymore. I proposed a solution: make SMN more powerful, but make it cost so much mp that only the best SMN can ever achieve it. It's almost like SE reads these forums.

I can't lose. I applaud SE.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post106169

SE made a staff like that for the very few people who would melee as those jobs listed on that staff. BLMs should never melee at all, because the damage done from melee hits is too weak to justify losing the +10%/+25% damage increase from spells. SCHs shouldn't melee for the same reason. SMNs can melee, but that is still debatable on most NMs.

Besides, how can you hold back if you are not a SMN? You keep throwing numbers without proof.

Besides, if a BP costs 300-400 MP to use, you of all people would hurt the most from it because you either have to stand back and not melee just to keep MP up, or have to use that WS at 100%, which hurts your DoT (or so you claim that you have) because you have a lower ODD rate.

I swear, you are the most lost person in this world, and you never leave your room either.

[Korpg]

You know, even outside of abyssea I have yet to have a need for Convert on most NMs? Some I converted on accident, but still.

I'm still wondering what the hardest mob Dallas has ever soloed. Because I doubt he has solo'd anything worthwhile or challenging.

[Dallas]

That would not be cool. Average smn should be able to achieve anything smn has to offer. I don't believe game designers should design anything with a vision to exclude folks.

Think of most SMN as a large pile of SAM who never melee, and only use a WS when Meditate is up. It's not SE's fault that the playerbase chooses to be gimp.

Raz, yes, SE made the best staff for the best players.