Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Malamasala]

As I said in my above post I melee in campaign too, But again there's no real downside to death and mobs are easy enough there now.

I've died 10 times at various places, with limits mode on, and lost 500 exp. I still don't get it myself, but SE must be spamming us with content that has no exp loss on death. And I'm sure you could get 500 exp back if you also died 10 times at various activities while meleeing.

I can't claim I actually meleed when I died though. More like monster ran next to me because someone pulled hate, then AOEed me... which brings me to my popular complaint that what does it matter if SMN is hate free if someone else is pulling hate anyway?

[RAIST]

@Razushu
I'm not talking about experience in the sense of learning how to do something, I'm talking about first hand experience of actually doing it--seeing the results for yourself. Things are simply different with a capped skill at 90 than they are when you are 90 and your skill is only at the 74 caps. Take out the extra WS and gear varieties and just look at the damage calculation. The function that compares your ATT to target's defense is a flat mod to your damage output. Raising skill raises your base ATT rating. That alone means you are comparing apples to oranges on that one portion of the debate because you don't have the skill capped.

[Razushu]

I've died 10 times at various places, with limits mode on, and lost 500 exp. I still don't get it myself, but SE must be spamming us with content that has no exp loss on death. And I'm sure you could get 500 exp back if you also died 10 times at various activities while meleeing.

I can't claim I actually meleed when I died though. More like monster ran next to me because someone pulled hate, then AOEed me... which brings me to my popular complaint that what does it matter if SMN is hate free if someone else is pulling hate anyway?

I think it was so the tank and healer could have a DD in the party they didn#'t need to worry about, But our damage isn't big enough to make that really desired atm

[Razushu]

@Razushu
I'm not talking about experience in the sense of learning how to do something, I'm talking about first hand experience of actually doing it--seeing the results for yourself. Things are simply different with a capped skill at 90 than they are when you are 90 and your skill is only at the 74 caps. Take out the extra WS and gear varieties and just look at the damage calculation. The function that compares your ATT to target's defense is a flat mod to your damage output. Raising skill raises your base ATT rating. That alone means you are comparing apples to oranges on that one portion of the debate because you don't have the skill capped.

No you're comparing apples to... slightly bigger apples. The extra WS is the only change and as I said WS aren't so vastly different you need to have it and have used it many times to understand it's nature. So being capped when I was 74 and being capped at 90 will be 2 entirely different matters?

[RAIST]

for calculating damage output yes.

Here's an example: I dind't start breaking 1k Jin's against EM targets on my 90 NIN again until I got near recapping my katanas. Same gear, same job level--the only change was my skill.

[Razushu]

for calculating damage output yes.

Here's an example: I dind't start breaking 1k Jin's against EM targets on my 90 NIN again until I got near recapping my katanas. Same gear, same job level--the only change was my skill.

so the amount of damage changed but nothing else? like I've been saying. just because you're breaking 1k doesn't change the way nin is played. again higher skill = more damage =/= an enitrely different playing experience that only getting those extra levels unlock

[RAIST]

when it leads to no longer just tickling the mob...it makes a difference

[Razushu]

when it leads to no longer just tickling the mob...it makes a difference

Compared to a frontline job you are just tickling the mob. Also still no differnce in play experience just he results will slightly improve

[RAIST]

See... there is an example of what I'm talking about. If you don't have an on par setup as people who actively melee and are supporting it, you can't really provide an accurate argument against it as you don't have anywhere near the output or possibly even a comparable damage mitigation strategy. I can be on the front line hitting just as hard per hit with my Staff as I do with my NIN--sometimes actually even harder. Other's on the front line have been killled by AOE's while I survived, stuck my pet on it, raised them and took off to kite it while they rested up.

Here's some more examples to try to illustrate the damage output difference:

My naked SMN has 396 base ATT with a staff equipped. Against a mob with 300 defense, before any of the VIT and level difference and everything, you are starting with a base mod of 1.32, giving a base of 105 damage with an 80 damage staff.

Now take off that 90 skill, lowering your ATT and ACC--dropping you to 306 ATT, leaving a mod of just 1.02 and a base of 81 damage with the same weapon. That's almost a 30% difference.

Lets say you have a NIN geared for a balance of haste and evasion that winds up with with 410 attack, 46 damage weapon. This yields a base mod of 1.3666... giving a base of 62 per hit, 124 per DW round.

Even with an avatar staff that only gives 52 damage per hit, it comes out to 62 damage per hit--the same damage per hit-- versus just 53 with 245 skill.

Because of your lower skill keeping you at a lower attack rating, you are more likely to suffer a penalty on that mod against the tougher level 74+ mobs (ones more likely to have higher base defense ratings), and so you aren't seeing the ramped up damage. All of this comes into play also with physical weaponskills. The math is stranger because of the secondary mods, the level mods, etc--but it has the same pDIF function at the end. So after all is calculated you are working off a 1.32 mod at 335 skill vs 1.02 mod on the same mob. Think of it like MAB for a BLM. Higher skill simply translates to more damage via a similar mechanic when it comes to physical damage.

So, until you have capped your skill and seen the increase in damage, then that can't really be part of your argument with someone who IS set up to deal out the bigger numbers. You are more likely to get that feeling you are just tickling things because you in fact have nerfed output because of your lower skill.

As for geting killed in one or two hits...that's more an issue with how you are set up when you go in, or maybe not seating hate on your avatar first is an issue. Gear and buffs may help mitigate that. Getting out of range for an AOE, or doing something to interrupt it if it's a spell, bar spells etc. go a long way to extending your chances too.

The point is...first get yourself set up on par with those that are doing it already, then debate it.

[Razushu]

See... there is an example of what I'm talking about. If you don't have an on par setup as people who actively melee and are supporting it, you can't really provide an accurate argument against it as you don't have anywhere near the output or possibly even a comparable damage mitigation strategy. I can be on the front line hitting just as hard per hit with my Staff as I do with my NIN--sometimes actually even harder. Other's on the front line have been killled by AOE's while I survived, stuck my pet on it, raised them and took off to kite it while they rested up.

Here's some more examples to try to illustrate the damage output difference:

My naked SMN has 396 base ATT with a staff equipped. Against a mob with 300 defense, before any of the VIT and level difference and everything, you are starting with a base mod of 1.32, giving a base of 105 damage with an 80 damage staff.

Now take off that 90 skill, lowering your ATT and ACC--dropping you to 306 ATT, leaving a mod of just 1.02 and a base of 81 damage with the same weapon. That's almost a 30% difference.

Lets say you have a NIN geared for a balance of haste and evasion that winds up with with 410 attack, 46 damage weapon. This yields a base mod of 1.3666... giving a base of 62 per hit, 124 per DW round.

Even with an avatar staff that only gives 52 damage per hit, it comes out to 62 damage per hit--the same damage per hit-- versus just 53 with 245 skill.

Because of your lower skill keeping you at a lower attack rating, you are more likely to suffer a penalty on that mod against the tougher level 74+ mobs (ones more likely to have higher base defense ratings), and so you aren't seeing the ramped up damage. All of this comes into play also with physical weaponskills. The math is stranger because of the secondary mods, the level mods, etc--but it has the same pDIF function at the end. So after all is calculated you are working off a 1.32 mod at 335 skill vs 1.02 mod on the same mob. Think of it like MAB for a BLM. Higher skill simply translates to more damage via a similar mechanic when it comes to physical damage.

So, until you have capped your skill and seen the increase in damage, then that can't really be part of your argument with someone who IS set up to deal out the bigger numbers. You are more likely to get that feeling you are just tickling things because you in fact have nerfed output because of your lower skill.

As for geting killed in one or two hits...that's more an issue with how you are set up when you go in, or maybe not seating hate on your avatar first is an issue. Gear and buffs may help mitigate that. Getting out of range for an AOE, or doing something to interrupt it if it's a spell, bar spells etc. go a long way to extending your chances too.

The point is...first get yourself set up on par with those that are doing it already, then debate it.

1) the entire frontline but the SMN die to an AoE? I'm sorry but I find that highly unbelievable. I've also kited many a mob and saved a party from AoE wipe.

2) Your SMN out damages damages your nin per hit? So what that nin is going to be hitting far more and you'll be DDing for far less tha it.

3) Your point is still "You hit for less so you can't understand how it's played" A difference in number's isn't a difference in how it's played.

4) If you're not capable of pulling hate you've not justified your spot upfront and if you wouldn't survive pulling hate you shouldn't be front line. The argument agaainst SMN melee is the same argument as against any backline meleer. The Damage output won't be worth the risk.

5) That would want to be an AoE with a giant recast/tiny range if you're reliably running out of range of it, but then again an AoE that'll drop a SMN won't always be such a Danger to jobs that should frontline. And maybe those party wipes wouldn't have happened if you were backline supporting the party while using an avatar to DD.

6) Again I understand the concept of melee just fine, I'm well able to debate it.