Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Razushu]

umm...I'd hardly call 1k+ Spirit Takers in abyssea that can fully refill your MP after Spamming Mana Cede and BP's and depleting your MP pool in large chunks a "weak WS" not worth using instead of Retribution or Cataclysm. Maybe if you had your staff capped, you might appreciate it's utility.

In Abyssea, everything can do big damage, there is no argument for SMN melee in here that can't be applied to the other backliners. I spam Mana Cede and BP's and spells from my subjob and MP is still not a problem. I have the weapon skill it's the highest tier I have I fully appreciate it's utility I use it all the time in Campaign and exping on EPs.

[RAIST]

lol... guess that may be the issue...only fighting EP's. Until you've stepped up your game and started taking on bigger prey, don't think you can give a very informed opinion on SMN melee playstyles.

There is nothing encoded in the game to prevent any job from meleeing--this is a player created and driven issue. I often avoided the boring solo sleep/nuke/rest strategy on BLM. I would often get teased for it, but it was just hella more fun to thwack at things some while you were nuking them down--often times it seemed to make things go a little faster too without having to rest all the time. I did the same thing on WHM, RDM, BRD, SMN......it all comes down to how you gear and play.

If you are comfortable staying away from your target and chucking pets at it, that's your style. If you aren't the Krazy Ivan type that likes to mix it up now and then, has your weapons capped as well as your magic, and has a gear set to aid in this playstyle that makes it very effective for you in the proper setting....please refrain from putting down those that do (not you specifically Razushu, but the players in general).

And spirit taker isn't just good in Abyssea. I've been able to peg 300+ easily in non-aby zones. Seen it fire off around the 800 mark on EP's. Was in campaign just yesterday popping it for 300+ on bosses--and that was with the weaker Avatar staves. If I would have switched to my melee staff, it would have done more.

[Dallas]

In Abyssea, everything can do big damage, there is no argument for SMN melee in here that can't be applied to the other backliners.

How long does it take to fire off a V spell? How much enmity does that produce? You still aren't ready to argue against melee mages.

[Razushu]

lol... guess that may be the issue...only fighting EP's. Until you've stepped up your game and started taking on bigger prey, don't think you can give a very informed opinion on SMN melee playstyles.

There is nothing encoded in the game to prevent any job from meleeing--this is a player created and driven issue. I often avoided the boring solo sleep/nuke/rest strategy on BLM. I would often get teased for it, but it was just hella more fun to thwack at things some while you were nuking them down--often times it seemed to make things go a little faster too without having to rest all the time. I did the same thing on WHM, RDM, BRD, SMN......it all comes down to how you gear and play.

If you are comfortable staying away from your target and chucking pets at it, that's your style. If you aren't the Krazy Ivan type that likes to mix it up now and then, has your weapons capped as well as your magic, and has a gear set to aid in this playstyle that makes it very effective for you in the proper setting....please refrain from putting down those that do (not you specifically Razushu, but the players in general).

And spirit taker isn't just good in Abyssea. I've been able to peg 300+ easily in non-aby zones. Seen it fire off around the 800 mark on EP's. Was in campaign just yesterday popping it for 300+ on bosses--and that was with the weaker Avatar staves. If I would have switched to my melee staff, it would have done more.

Lol step up my game? I only melee on EPs because it's worth the risk, I solo NMs all the time theres no need for me to step up my game. I know SMN I know it's strengths and weaknesses, again I've yet to find a thing in FFXI that would require years of practise to understand.

I've already said if it's safe melee. I'm not putting down any that do(except Dallas he's.... Special). There's nothing encoded into the game to stop non-melees meleeing but the jobs are designed so that some jobs do it well and some don't, SMN falls into the latter obviously(but again I'm not saying don't). As I said in my above post I melee in campaign too, But again there's no real downside to death and mobs are easy enough there now.

[Razushu]

How long does it take to fire off a V spell? How much enmity does that produce? You still aren't ready to argue against melee mages.

Anyone with sense can argue against making the weakest side of a job that can be applied under certain circumstances the full time main focus of the job

[Arciel]

everything has its trade offs..

SMN can solo a bunch of junk in Abyssea but a lot of that isn't particularly efficient, and you'll have to accept the lower drop rate. Of course, nothing is stopping you, although you may find yourself annoying more than a few people who are waiting in line to pop the same NM, or for its next pop.

Even so, it isn't particularly popular, even if it can proc a bunch of things, even if it could be the most reliable job for NMs that murder you with cheap death tricks. But its their loss, not yours.

Spirit Taker, well.. theres never a need to use that in Abyssea, so its a bit of a moot point. If you're actually running out of MP BPing full-time, mana ceding and whatnot with an atma like MM on, even after Elemental Siphon, its likely your gear that needs checking, not your playstyle.

Myrkr, even less necessary in Abyssea for SMN, altho a point could be made that with it you can forego a refresh atma and do something DDish like RR VV SS and rely on the regain to power your Myrkr and overcome any MP shortfall.
There is no denying that its an excellent utility WS for MP, but this is true whether or not you melee, so using it as an excuse to push for meleeing isn't going to work.

also lol @ the backliner comparison.. in the time that a V spell starts casting and goes off... how much damage does it do? And how much damage can your melee mage hold up to that? >_>

[RAIST]

Lol step up my game? I only melee on EPs because it's worth the risk, I solo NMs all the time theres no need for me to step up my game. I know SMN I know it's strengths and weaknesses, again I've yet to find a thing in FFXI that would require years of practise to understand.

I've already said if it's safe melee. I'm not putting down any that do(except Dallas he's.... Special). There's nothing encoded into the game to stop non-melees meleeing but the jobs are designed so that some jobs do it well and some don't, SMN falls into the latter obviously(but again I'm not saying don't). As I said in my above post I melee in campaign too, But again there's no real downside to death and mobs are easy enough there now.

the point is you won't cap your staff fighting EP's, and therefore haven't really experienced all that your weapon has to offer in melee situations, so you aren't able to provide as informed an opinion on that playstyle as someone who has. When you are continually fighting tougher mobs and capped off that skill and gained access to a wider variety of weaponskills and such to experience the wider versatility it provides....then you have a stronger foundation for discussion. For example, using campaign melee is a poor example for discussing SMN melee--some of those mobs were easily soloable at 75 SMN and are pretty much a joke at 90.

[Razushu]

the point is you won't cap your staff fighting EP's, and therefore haven't really experienced all that your weapon has to offer in melee situations, so you aren't able to provide as informed an opinion on that playstyle as someone who has. When you are continually fighting tougher mobs and capped off that skill and gained access to a wider variety of weaponskills and such to experience the wider versatility it provides....then you have a stronger foundation for discussion. For example, using campaign melee is a poor example for discussing SMN melee--some of those mobs were easily soloable at 75 SMN and are pretty much a joke at 90.

First off as a SMN further skilling up gains me no extra WS, I'll need to /WHM to get them. Secondly I've experienced enough unless the WS gained after Spirit Taker transform the player into a giant robot that exits the atmosphere and and hits the mob with a charged particle cannon from orbit, I'm pretty sure I'll know how/when to use it. I do fight tougher mobs, I just don't melee on things that can 1 or 2 shot a SMN if things go south.

Except Myrkr WS are generally the same with minor differences chain properties, AoE etc. that are easy to comprehend and use. I have a fine foundation for disscussion, being that I'm a human of atleast average intelligence and I've read on the subject. Campaign is a fine example of SMN melee in that the principles of melee will remain the same regardless of mob fought you just have to be more careful with tougher mobs. also you're the one who started using Campaign as an example. I merely stated that it's one of the things I'd use my staff on.

[RAIST]

First off as a SMN further skilling up gains me no extra WS, I'll need to /WHM to get them. Secondly I've experienced enough unless the WS gained after Spirit Taker transform the player into a giant robot that exits the atmosphere and and hits the mob with a charged particle cannon from orbit, I'm pretty sure I'll know how/when to use it. I do fight tougher mobs, I just don't melee on things that can 1 or 2 shot a SMN if things go south.

Except Myrkr WS are generally the same with minor differences chain properties, AoE etc. that are easy to comprehend and use. I have a fine foundation for disscussion, being that I'm a human of atleast average intelligence and I've read on the subject. Campaign is a fine example of SMN melee in that the principles of melee will remain the same regardless of mob fought you just have to be more careful with tougher mobs. also you're the one who started using Campaign as an example. I merely stated that it's one of the things I'd use my staff on.

you have 245 skill....natural cap is 335, so that's 90 more points of skill to increase your ACC and ATT with, plus there is the head piece you can throw on to give you 12 more ACC and +5 skill on top of that, along with various other gears to assist your output.

Have you unlocked Retribution (230 WSNM trial)? Have you closed a chain and fired off a MB on it? Or even just soloed your own chains? Do you have a stronger staff for meleeing that does more than 52 damage? All kinds of little tweaks here and there that are easy to do that make a BIG difference to how your staff meleeing performs. It sounds almost as if your main argument for meleeing is Spirit Taker or something, when there is so much more available. You don't melee just for MP recovery.

As for my reference to Campaign,

Was in campaign just yesterday popping it for 300+ on bosses--and that was with the weaker Avatar staves. If I would have switched to my melee staff, it would have done more.

that was a specific reference for comparing the damage output of Spirit taker alone, and not about SMN melee potential in general.

The fact that you have yet to fully explore all that the playstyle has to offer means you can't provide a fully accurate comparison. You completely write off cataclysm, and you've never even tried using it...oh yeah...because you CAN'T.

That is how I farmed some AF3 feet for myself and others btw... solo SMN/WHM, building amber with my Cataclysm. I later switched to doing it on NIN because I got tired of trashing stones since it was harder to score the azure with SMN.

[Razushu]

you have 245 skill....natural cap is 335, so that's 90 more points of skill to increase your ACC and ATT with, plus there is the head piece you can throw on to give you 12 more ACC and +5 skill on top of that, along with various other gears to assist your output.

I have that head piece, and I fully understand how to gear a melee job. I ncreased ACC and ATK does notchange how it works, if I know how to do something at 245 it won't change at 335 skill and vice versa.

Have you unlocked Retribution (230 WSNM trial)? Have you closed a chain and fired off a MB on it? Or even just soloed your own chains? Do you have a stronger staff for meleeing that does more than 52 damage? All kinds of little tweaks here and there that are easy to do that make a BIG difference to how your staff meleeing performs. It sounds almost as if your main argument for meleeing is Spirit Taker or something, when there is so much more available. You don't melee just for MP recovery.

No. I fail to see how Retribution changes how it would be played other than different SC and MB properties.

Yes I have been doing it for 50 levels Sunburst, poison nails and banish. I even was able to pick up my brother's SAM mid colibri party when he needed to go and duobox it with my SMN skillchaining with Shiva's Double Slap.

Again does more damage on a staff change how it is played?(aside from needing to be more careful with hate)

They're easy to do so why are you touting this as difficult and you need to have everything available for it.

The melee SMNs I've discussed it with WS to regain their MP most of the time, from how I've interpretted their posts. Aside from SC properties(which ST has none) how does choice of WS change it in a way so drastic that I'd need to have them to understand a style?

If you gear for melee you need to melee for MP.

As for my reference to Campaign,

that was a specific reference for comparing the damage output of Spirit taker alone, and not about SMN melee potential in general.

Well I apologise I misinterpretted your post

The fact that you have yet to fully explore all that the playstyle has to offer means you can't provide a fully accurate comparison. You completely write off cataclysm, and you've never even tried using it...oh yeah...because you CAN'T.

I've experienced enough to fully understand it only a child would need as much experience in it as you deem necessary to understand it. I've never written it off Cataclysm and when iI do unlock it I'll be able to use it.... because it's a WS I have them already I already know how to use WS because I've been using them for 90 levels on SMN already.

That is how I farmed some AF3 feet for myself and others btw... solo SMN/WHM, building amber with my Cataclysm. I later switched to doing it on NIN because I got tired of trashing stones since it was harder to score the azure with SMN.

I farmed my AF3 feet too and was going to use rock crusher to build amber, Didn't need to in the end I got my feet off the first kill.