[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

[Shaorin]

The answer to your question about the ability you forgot, Divine Emblem. You asked what it can be used for, and I'll tell you. If you read the description on it, it mentions an increase enmity to the next divine spell cast. And let me tell you something that does REDICULOUS amounts of enmity when you need it in a pinch. Pop Divine Emblem and cast Flash, its Enmity gain is massive, and you will find yourself gaining threat back when you thought it was near impossible to achieve.

Divine Emblem is useless. The recast timer is too long. If they shorten the recast to like 30s so I can use it every flash then it would be useful. With the damage output of a DD Tank generating their hate can easily out pace what you get with Divine Emblem+Flash. Example, NIN/WAR, with a NIN using Provoke and tossing out 2k Jins, the PLD will never hold hate as well the NIN with that once a 5 min Divine Emblem.

[Humie]

I know it wouldnt solve PLDs problems but it would sure help if we had provoke. We have seen all sorts of jobs get traits from other jobs that they have never gotten before.

Yet PLD still doesnt get the one ability designed to get hate or even a ability equal to provoke. Flash has a very slow recast with out full haste songs and sentinal is just to long of a rescast to be compared to provoke.

[Ralrra]

I know it wouldnt solve PLDs problems but it would sure help if we had provoke. We have seen all sorts of jobs get traits from other jobs that they have never gotten before.

Yet PLD still doesnt get the one ability designed to get hate or even a ability equal to provoke. Flash has a very slow recast with out full haste songs and sentinal is just to long of a rescast to be compared to provoke.

I think we were supposed to at one point.

Type "/recast Enrage" (w/o quotes) when you're on PLD main once. It shows up as [Enrage] --:--, which suggests to me that we are/were supposed to have some kind of Provoke-like ability.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Job Trait ideas - Max Enmity Bonus

They have a Max HP and Max MP Bonus, so why not do this for PLD? They mention raising the Enmity cap won't fix the current hate problem, but if a PLD can get 150% hate and every other job can only hit 100%, then there's a buffer there. The PLD still has to work to maintain that buffer, but as it is right now, I can toss out everything I have to hold hate from a MNK with capped Haste and not have a prayer to hold hate from them - especially inside Abyssea if they're using Razed Ruins.

I don't see why this can't be done to move PLD back to where it needs to be (and please, PLEASE don't tell me it should be a DD like DRK - it NEVER has been in any other FF game and was never intended to be in this one. If you want to be a DD, there are plenty of DD jobs out there to be).

[Zagen]

Job Trait ideas - Max Enmity Bonus

They have a Max HP and Max MP Bonus, so why not do this for PLD? They mention raising the Enmity cap won't fix the current hate problem, but if a PLD can get 150% hate and every other job can only hit 100%, then there's a buffer there. The PLD still has to work to maintain that buffer, but as it is right now, I can toss out everything I have to hold hate from a MNK with capped Haste and not have a prayer to hold hate from them - especially inside Abyssea if they're using Razed Ruins.

I don't see why this can't be done to move PLD back to where it needs to be (and please, PLEASE don't tell me it should be a DD like DRK - it NEVER has been in any other FF game and was never intended to be in this one. If you want to be a DD, there are plenty of DD jobs out there to be).

When you give the PLD higher hate amounts nothing in the game changes. A DD can A) cap hate, B) maintain it over mages, and C) kill the monster faster. Giving PLD a higher cap than any other player gives them A and B (which they can do already) but does nothing for C, since a DD can do A, B, and C all at once there still wouldn't be a need for PLD.

[Nebo]

The answer to your question about the ability you forgot, Divine Emblem. You asked what it can be used for, and I'll tell you. If you read the description on it, it mentions an increase enmity to the next divine spell cast. And let me tell you something that does REDICULOUS amounts of enmity when you need it in a pinch. Pop Divine Emblem and cast Flash, its Enmity gain is massive, and you will find yourself gaining threat back when you thought it was near impossible to achieve.

What does this have to do with the update?

[Dale]

From the list:

Paladin

* The effect for the job ability Cover will be partially modified.
* The job ability Shield Bash will grant a damage bonus based on the type of shield used.
* The job ability Divine Emblem will grant a damage bonus based on the player's divine magic skill.


Thoughts? I fail how to see this will effect much of anything if I understand it correctly.

Cover to be effective will have to be overhauled, as opposed to partially modified. For starters, on the occassion I use this ability too often am I lined up what i feel to be 'correctly' and I don't cover anything.

Shield Bash doing more damage is nice, but I don't think you really worried about the damage it would deal anyways even with an Aegis, and would use it more for stun/hate purposes.

I often forget we have Divine Emblem to be honest, it really is an afterthought. Unless there is some hidden use for it I'm missing. So if I use Divine Emblem post update, I should expect to see a damage increase on Holy? If it's not monumental I think I'll just save that MP to use on a Cure4 thanks.

I realize PLD is a difficult job to fix, but the above suggested changes don't seem to do much of anything. These are more like 'tweaks' when PLD needs multiple 'overhauls'.

Thoughts?

Paladins do not need "Fixing", as that implies they are broken, which they aren't. Nothing is perfect though and improvements are always possible.

My thoughts:

Not sure about the cover improvement, as it's too vague and have no clue what they are doing. "Partically modified" could mean almost anything. My hope is they make it automatically block attacks when you cover someone.

The shield bash change could be interesting, and will give paladins who want to focus on increasing their offense a new strategy utilizing different shields.

The divine emblem change sounds ok... God knows this ability deffinitely needs some improvement. For a 10 minute recast this ability just sucks, i don't care what anyone says. They should put the move on a 30 second recast, then it would be decent.

[Dale]

Divine Emblem is useless. The recast timer is too long. If they shorten the recast to like 30s so I can use it every flash then it would be useful. .

I agree with this guy.

[Dale]

When you give the PLD higher hate amounts nothing in the game changes. A DD can A) cap hate, B) maintain it over mages, and C) kill the monster faster. Giving PLD a higher cap than any other player gives them A and B (which they can do already) but does nothing for C, since a DD can do A, B, and C all at once there still wouldn't be a need for PLD.

/sigh

This argument manages to creep into every thread about paladin and it's getting old and it makes no sense.

Who cares if other more offense oriented tanks can kill faster than a Paladin. They have less defense, require more support - what's the problem?

That's like saying a red mage sucks at nuking cause black mages can kill things faster with nukes so a red mage's nukes are broken and need to be fixed. It's a silly argument. If you are in a group with another tank who is generating more enmity than you and managing to stay alive help support him instead of complaining about him. Use your white magic to heal him and back him up if he gets into trouble. There is more to a paladin than just "sponging" and just because you are not the main tank in a group doens't mean you are useless and have nothing else to do.

[Zagen]

Who cares if other more offense oriented tanks can kill faster than a Paladin. They have less defense, require more support - what's the problem?

Huh? My MNK needs a WHM for support my friend's NIN/WAR needs the same WHM for support. Guess what my PLD needs a WHM for support. How is that "more support" for the DDs?

When my DEF 71 MNK takes maybe 100 more damage than my 700 DEF PLD how is that DEF really matter when I'm countering 60-70% of the hits that my PLD is eating with a shield block if I'm lucky?

That's like saying a red mage sucks at nuking cause black mages can kill things faster with nukes so a red mage's nukes are broken and need to be fixed. It's a silly argument. If you are in a group with another tank who is generating more enmity than you and managing to stay alive help support him instead of complaining about him. Use your white magic to heal him and back him up if he gets into trouble. There is more to a paladin than just "sponging" and just because you are not the main tank in a group doens't mean you are useless and have nothing else to do.

If the RDM didn't offer Dia 2/3 for DEF Down, Slow II, Paralyze II, Addle, Help with Hastes, Refresh 2, a more effective stun due to faster recast then I'd agree RDM would be broken.