Why was the THF thread Moved?

[Nebo]

This is not intended to be a QQ thread. I am just curious as to the reason.

There are several single job specific threads on this very front page. Some regarding the Dev1017 Adjustments, some not.

Why was the thread about THF Dev1017 changes moved?

It's because we're criminals isn't it?

[noodles355]

I would like to add to this by asking why no topics in the job specific forums ever get any recognition.

Do you (SE Forum reps) realise why there are so many job-specific topics in the general forum? Maybe if you took the time to visit the job specific forums and actually made it look like you read them, then people would post their job specific issues there. As it is, no one has any reason at all to believe any of those job specific forums are actually even read by you.

[Eeek]

A SAM thread would never have moved from General Discussion to the SAM Forum.

Oh, and lolTHF.

[Greatguardian]

I find this thread funny because the thread that was moved was basically a "Why was X thread closed?" thread itself. Oh, the irony.

Also, I am under the impression that the Job Specific Discussion forums are meant to be exactly that. Forums, where people who have X job or who are interested in X job, can discuss X job with one another. I highly, highly doubt they were intended solely to provide feedback. How often are Server-specific forums used to provide feedback?

No one ever said that every single thing posted on these boards was to be used as Developer feedback. People just assumed that because some feedback was to be taken from here, absolutely everything that was ever typed in every section was going to be looked at. These forums are most definitely meant to serve as a discussion hub as much as a feedback hub.

Of course, as I say this, a bunch of people who made threads in JS forums are probably going to turn around and remake the same threads in GD, Battle Content, and wherever else they can think to put them. The fact of the matter is, that probably isn't going to help much. The Development team likely already has a decent idea of what they want to do with all 20 jobs. If they decide they want to look at player suggestions or complaints with a certain job, I'm sure they will. In the meantime, spamming threads about one job in the General Discussion forum is just going to be met with locks and moves to the JS forums.

Oh yeah. GMs are straight up Not Allowed to respond to direct questions on these forums. It is against their rules. Period. People need to Stop making threads just to ask "Why was my thread locked" or "Why was this moved". You will never, ever get an answer. All you're doing is inviting whatever crapfest got the original thread locked/moved to be brought into a new thread.

[Nebo]

I am under the impression that the Job Specific Discussion forums are meant to be exactly that. Forums, where people who have X job or who are interested in X job, can discuss X job with one another.

Of course they are.

I highly, highly doubt they were intended solely to provide feedback.

However, I think you are mistaken if you think feedback is not the primary purpose of these official forums. There are tons of community discussion forum sites already in existance. The fact that they added systems like dev tags and request feedback regarding content suggests otherwise.

The developement team wants to know what people are saying about their content. So much so that they hired a community team and created official forums so they could better manage the feedback on the content they release, as well as create a better channel of communication with their target market.

They didn't create these forums just so players could have a place to discuss FFXI with each other. They created them so that they could watch these conversations happening and benefit from the insight. You can bet it was a very specific, customer relationship management, marketing descision.

Also, no where in the General Discussion forum guidlines are Job Update discussions, like the Dev1017 changes discouraged.

I would also like to point out that they have stated this is the place to make feedback/suggestions:

The thread was moved from In-Game Bugs over to General Discussion since it is more related to feedback/suggestions. While we do not have a direct section for any gameplay suggestions, general discussion also serves that purpose. Thank you for posting!

Besides, not all players browse Job Specific forums that they don't have leveled. The community at large also may have valuable oppnions and insights on specific adjustments as it relates to general game balance and their jobs. So I think there is value in such discussions, even in the context of a general discussion forum.

The fact of the matter is, that probably isn't going to help much.

What makes you think it won't? Do you think that the Dev team decided to change the range on Accomplice/Collaborator just because they thought it would be a cool thing to do? Or did it have something to do with the multitude of THF being vocal about the range limitations being too severe?

As a game developer, especially an MMO developer, it would be foolish for a company not to listen to a target market that is just dying to be given more reasons to give you more money. I for one, think the creation of these official forums suggests that Square Enix is starting to realise this.

In the meantime, spamming threads about one job in the General Discussion forum is just going to be met with locks and moves to the JS forums.

The first thread you are talking about was closed by the OP for fear of trolls, not a member of the community team. No one is spamming THF anything on the General Discussion forums either. The two threads in question were all related to dev1017 feedback regarding the Accomplice/Collaborator range adjustment. Had the OP not closed the origional thread, the discussion would have continued there.

Also, the community team answers questions and responds to topics all the time. Case in point, there is a thread requesting a roadmap for Job Direction moving forward. Not long after its creation there was a community team post stating that they are working on one and will be revealing it in the near future.

[Greatguardian]

Being able to have a direct line of communication with the playerbase and ask for feedback when they want it does not equate to everything ever written on these forums, and every single section of these forums, being solely dedicated to Feedback. There are most definitely non-feedback sections for FFXI players to discuss things with one another.

Are job discussions discouraged in GD? No. Have a lot of them been moved to JS forums anyways? Yes.

I am sure every player in the world has some super awesome idea or insight for X, Y, or Z job that they just neeeeed to make the Developers use. Unfortunately, that's not how it works. When the developers want specific player suggestions for adjustments or additions to a job, they ask directly. They did so for Corsair, and replied quite a bit to the different suggestions that were made.

Will this make everyone happy? Nope. Is it better than the "old" method of Development which completely ignored and eschewed player suggestions and feedback for years at a time? Definitely. Do I think it's ideal? Honestly, yes. I would quit FFXI in a heartbeat if the Devs used even 10% of the absolute landslide of total crap-on-a-stick suggestions people have been throwing around for each of the jobs, and the game as a whole. I absolutely do not care how many troglodytes like the idea, or how proper the English it is presented with is. I do not care if even 90% of posters with X job love the idea to death. That does not mean the idea has merit, or that the Devs are somehow obligated to reply to it at all.

Contrary to popular belief, the Devs actually do have some ideas of their own that they probably want to try out first.

[Nebo]

Being able to have a direct line of communication with the playerbase and ask for feedback when they want it does not equate to everything ever written on these forums, and every single section of these forums, being solely dedicated to Feedback. There are most definitely non-feedback sections for FFXI players to discuss things with one another.

I would argue that there is no part of these official forums that does not exist for the purpose of feedback and communication with the players in regard to their various subheadings. Why else would Square Enix have invested the Financial, Design, and Human Resources, to create and moderate them? They would not have invested these things unless they saw value in the content.

Even discussions between players that are not specifically addressed to the Dev team can provide valuable insight and feedback to guide them in making decisions.

Are job discussions discouraged in GD? No. Have a lot of them been moved to JS forums anyways? Yes.

The thread in question is the only thread I have ever seen moved to a Job Specific forum from General Discussion. To the contrary, right now there are a couple of RDM ones, a SMN one and a NIN one here on the front page of General Discussion.

I am sure every player in the world has some super awesome idea or insight for X, Y, or Z job that they just neeeeed to make the Developers use. Unfortunately, that's not how it works. When the developers want specific player suggestions for adjustments or additions to a job, they ask directly. They did so for Corsair, and replied quite a bit to the different suggestions that were made.

Will this make everyone happy? Nope. Is it better than the "old" method of Development which completely ignored and eschewed player suggestions and feedback for years at a time? Definitely. Do I think it's ideal? Honestly, yes. I would quit FFXI in a heartbeat if the Devs used even 10% of the absolute landslide of total crap-on-a-stick suggestions people have been throwing around for each of the jobs, and the game as a whole. I absolutely do not care how many troglodytes like the idea, or how proper the English it is presented with is. I do not care if even 90% of posters with X job love the idea to death. That does not mean the idea has merit, or that the Devs are somehow obligated to reply to it at all.

Contrary to popular belief, the Devs actually do have some ideas of their own that they probably want to try out first.

You might have a point here if we weren't talking about a topic for which the Dev Team specifically created a dev tag [dev1017] and requested feedback .

Edit: I learned a new word today. I had to look up what a troglodyte was lol.

[Arcon]

I would argue that there is no part of these official forums that does not exist for the purpose of feedback and communication with the players in regard to their various subheadings. Why else would Square Enix have invested the Financial, Design, and Human Resources, to create and moderate them?

To provide means of communications among the playerbase, which is part of the game quality. Something they were behind on for several years, compared to other MMORPGs.

You might have a point here if we weren't talking about a topic for which the Dev Team specifically created a dev tag [dev1017] and requested feedback .

That was a thread that complained about another thread, which was about the Update content. Also, the contents of said thread diverted from the Update content to general THF talk. Just an idea why it may have been moved.

[Greatguardian]

I would argue that there is no part of these official forums that does not exist for the purpose of feedback and communication with the players in regard to their various subheadings. Why else would Square Enix have invested the Financial, Design, and Human Resources, to create and moderate them?

Even discussions between players that are not specifically addressed to the Dev team can also provide valuable insight and feedback to them.

Sure. It can all be used, potentially. That does not mean that they commit the human resources to scouring every subforum. For example, the Server-specific forums and New Players forums seem to be very clear in their intent to simply provide an "officially sanctioned" place for discussion and discourse among the playerbase.

The thread in question is the only thread I have ever seen moved to a Job Specific forum from GD.

You haven't been paying attention, then. I can think of at least a dozen threads that have been moved out of GD and into JS forums. A handful at least were Dark Knights b'awwwwing about how much they suck.

You might have a point here if we weren't talking about a topic for which the Dev Team specifically created a dev tag [dev1017] and requested feedback .

Then what's the issue with that particular thread being in the THF forum again? Corsair got a Dev tag where the Devs specifically asked for Corsair suggestions from the playerbase, and that was utilized entirely within the Corsair subforum. Sure, the JS forums are meant for job discussion, but if you have a Dev tag then what's the problem? Who cares where it's moved to?

Yeah. The Devs are really not going to respond to Tom, Dick, and Harry's random suggestions about random job X. Especially if that job is Puppetmaster because those guys annoy the hell out of me with thread spammage (Yes, I still remember that. Don't pull stupid shit unless you want people to hold it against you for a while). There is nothing wrong with using a Dev Tag when they specifically ask for feedback on a job/update, of course. But it does not need to happen in GD. Especially when it's on Thread #3 now.

[Nebo]

Sure. It can all be used, potentially. That does not mean that they commit the human resources to scouring every subforum. For example, the Server-specific forums and New Players forums seem to be very clear in their intent to simply provide an "officially sanctioned" place for discussion and discourse among the playerbase.

I guarantee you the community team is reading and paying close attention these forums as well. To address concerns and difficulties facing new players (they've even responded to a few), to monitor the situations of various servers in the wake of the world merge, etc.

Believe me, the official forums are much more for Square Enix's benefit than they are for the playerbase (this is true of any official forum for any MMO). They are fully aware of all of the community sites where players discussed FFXI before the official ones came online. They made their own in attempt to turn the awesome force that is the FFXI playerbase discussing FFXI into a useful marketing tool for them. It's probably one of the smartest things they've done in a long time (albeit a bit behind the times).

You haven't been paying attention, then. I can think of at least a dozen threads that have been moved out of GD and into JS forums. A handful at least were Dark Knights b'awwwwing about how much they suck.

I have. The moved ones keep their "moved" marker on the forum. The only other one I could find was a RDM one about getting en-spellra or some such thing. I'm sure it has happened before, but I wouldn't agree that it happens a lot.

Then what's the issue with that particular thread being in the THF forum again?

There are a couple: Less visability for one. There is an associated negative connotation with it being moved as well (like it was wrong to post in GD). As Noodles said, job forum posts don't typically get responded to. And as I said I think there is value in the insight of other players that may not browse the THF forums.

Edit:

Although I will say I wouldn't want to be the one responding directly to job forum threads. No matter what they say it will inevitably piss people off. It's probably better for them that they don't respond directly and just address job concerns through general posts and job updates. No matter how much we would like to engage them in conversation about these job issues.

There is nothing wrong with using a Dev Tag when they specifically ask for feedback on a job/update, of course. But it does not need to happen in GD

Ah, this is why I created this thread. Because they have said this is the place for feedback/suggestions, and there is nothing in the guidlines to discourage job specific update feedback from happening in the GD forum.

So.....if they said this is the place for feedback/suggestions, and they then created a dev tag and said "give us your feedback/suggestions on this topic, using this dev tag" why wouldn't it happen in General Discussion?

But really, this isn't a QQ thread. I'm more curious for the sake of clarification. This goes here, that goes there etc.