[dev1017] Make Cover a Job Trait?

[Rorrick]

I think you're missing the point that if Cover works all the time the Paladin's enmity doesn't matter.

Doing anything to it to enhance Paladin's offense in any way would not only move the job away from the niche SE has tried to carve out for it (it's the only job in the game that has developed in a purely defensive direction), it would push Paladin into an already oversaturated role; the offensive facetank. I'd rather see Paladin continue to evolve in a way that allows them to shine as they do in the lore; as a master of damage mitigation and protector of allies.

[Rorrick]

It wouldn't work because what if there more then 1 pld in the group? or what if there was 10? would dmg just not be taken by anyone in the party or would it just be spit between pld?

I missed this before, but whoever is standing in front of everyone else will be taking the damage. You could have an alliance of Paladins but only the one at the front of the proverbial congo-line will be taking the damage. Cover doesn't block AoE TP moves either so those will continue to hit everyone.

[Lazus]

I missed this before, but whoever is standing in front of everyone else will be taking the damage. You could have an alliance of Paladins but only the one at the front of the proverbial congo-line will be taking the damage. Cover doesn't block AoE TP moves either so those will continue to hit everyone.

Actually i misread your original post and thought it mention something about just having a pld in the party to take a certain amount of dmg from each person that take dmg (I know my apology for that)

But now we on a whole different thing, is this would not only break pld, but would eliminate any control in battle. Although Enmity and survivability in aby may not be a problem as long as you keep hate off the mages. Outside aby this would have dire effects o not only pld but other jobs as well. For example, thf, they are suppose to be able to control over where hate is going, with this JT won't need it, just have a pld stand in front of the one with hate and no problem, tank won't even have to use anything else and they can tank.

[Rorrick]

Not true, they can still TA the PLD, and Accomplice/Collaborator mages and DDs, and I would argue that THF's abilities do a poor job on controlling enmity flow in the first place (it takes the enmity from other jobs and gives it to itself rather than redirecting it to the designated tank). Obviously the goal is to make the Paladin the target of the enemy's ire, but this necessitates one of any number of complete overhauls to the game and/or its mechanics.

By making Cover a job trait you allow Paladin to do what it's been built to do (take damage in the place of party members) without having to completely redesign the game around it (which creates other problems). Not only does this allow Paladin to be the shield most (if not all) of the time, it has no impact on its other abilities. It can still use Flash to blind an enemy, it can still use its shield to block, it still has Sentinel (which needs a buff of its own when you look at it compared to Third Eye and Counterstance) and Rampart (which is essentially useless... see the pattern here?), and it will still be able to contribute damage. I'd argue this helps THF, which has a helluva time trying to land a Sneak Attack when the mob is spinning 180 degrees every other swing because your DDs all have capped CE. Stack them behind your Paladin and the THF is free to SA/TA with impunity, and can also be shielded when they inevitably cap CE by taking it from the mages.

[Lazus]

Not true, they can still TA the PLD, and Accomplice/Collaborator mages and DDs, and I would argue that THF's abilities do a poor job on controlling enmity flow in the first place (it takes the enmity from other jobs and gives it to itself rather than redirecting it to the designated tank). Obviously the goal is to make the Paladin the target of the enemy's ire, but this necessitates one of any number of complete overhauls to the game and/or its mechanics.

SA+TA is design to transfer the hate it would of got onto a different target. Adding Accomplish and Collaborator add enmity to the thf true which can be used in a TA. SO although they not the best abilities perhaps for hate bouncing they are there to control it somewhat. Also with your cover JT sure it would make the pld the one that taking dmg, but not the target, the target would be the one you standing in front of.

By making Cover a job trait you allow Paladin to do what it's been built to do (take damage in the place of party members) without having to completely redesign the game around it (which creates other problems). Not only does this allow Paladin to be the shield most (if not all) of the time, it has no impact on its other abilities. It can still use Flash to blind an enemy, it can still use its shield to block, it still has Sentinel (which needs a buff of its own when you look at it compared to Third Eye and Counterstance) and Rampart (which is essentially useless... see the pattern here?), and it will still be able to contribute damage. I'd argue this helps THF, which has a helluva time trying to land a Sneak Attack when the mob is spinning 180 degrees every other swing because your DDs all have capped CE. Stack them behind your Paladin and the THF is free to SA/TA with impunity, and can also be shielded when they inevitably cap CE by taking it from the mages.

This does make pld a shield it make pld a wall, and have you seen some plds before aby, you were lucky if they would cured themselves or even flash the mob (and yes these were lvl 75 pld, probably even worst now). This all sound more like a bandage then a actual fix. Also rampart not useless it really was very nice for magic attacks also if merited a was nice to make sure you can cast your shadows or get off that cured that would save you. I agree sentinel need improving, and shield bash too.
Basically it boils down to you taking away the pld ability that they should be a tank and making it a mindless chore. "Stand in front of the player that has enmity and hey you are taking the dmg instead. If it switches target move in front of them. Have thf SATA the tank, stand in front of the tank." That really doesn't sound like tanking to me. I don't know about you but i always felt a sign of accomplishment when i did my job and kept the hate on me. Wouldn't really feel the same way if my "tanking" just had me needing to stand in front of the one taking the dmg.

[Rorrick]

lulz, it's been so long since I played Paladin I forgot I merited Iron Will. That magic shield effect is mediocre at best though, especially now with every enemy spamming -ga IVs or otherwise hard hitting magical AoE attacks.

Just to be clear, Trick Attack doesn't transfer all the THF's enmity, just the enmity generated for that strike.

Paladin has never really been great at holding hate. You either play with subpar DDs or they were holding back to keep things under control. It's to the point now though where, both inside and outside Abyssea, holding back just isn't a viable solution. You pretty much need to disengage to let a Paladin hold hate. I consider tanking to be "taking all the damage" which is what this change does. If your Paladins never cured themselves then they sucked, but that has nothing to do with how you'd play the job with a Cover job trait. I don't see how anything would change, honestly. The only difference is that your enmity level wouldn't matter, which is the entire problem in the first place.

Just because you play with lazy Paladins doesn't mean this isn't the easiest, most impactful change they can make to Paladin to add SOME usefulness to the job. If you want to stand there and AFK, that's your prerogative, but I won't be, and making Cover a job trait won't force me to.

[Lazus]

lulz, it's been so long since I played Paladin I forgot I merited Iron Will. That magic shield effect is mediocre at best though, especially now with every enemy spamming -ga IVs or otherwise hard hitting magical AoE attacks.

A magic shield that reduces magic attacks against you and your party by a couple hundred is still better then nothing.

Paladin has never really been great at holding hate. You either play with subpar DDs or they were holding back to keep things under control. It's to the point now though where, both inside and outside Abyssea, holding back just isn't a viable solution. You pretty much need to disengage to let a Paladin hold hate. I consider tanking to be "taking all the damage" which is what this change does. If your Paladins never cured themselves then they sucked, but that has nothing to do with how you'd play the job with a Cover job trait. I don't see how anything would change, honestly. The only difference is that your enmity level wouldn't matter, which is the entire problem in the first place.

Yes thy couldn't go all out right at the start of the fight but usually they could after a mins or two, and a pld could hold hate for a few mins before they would also hit the cap. I consider tanking as keeping your party alive by having the mob focus on you by actually doing your job. This change would change a lot of things and hurt pld more. We already got another bad players that use to play it when it was popular. Enmity levels should matter, basicly you metality is the same as the people that just started the game and aby from 30-90. "I want to game to play itself for me while I take it easy.

Some pld actually like to tank and want to earn it. I rather have a fix then a bandage.

QUOTE=Rorrick;118325]Just because you play with lazy Paladins doesn't mean this isn't the easiest, most impactful change they can make to Paladin to add SOME usefulness to the job. If you want to stand there and AFK, that's your prerogative, but I won't be, and making Cover a job trait won't force me to.[/QUOTE]

I never had to play with bad plds, if one didn't want to do their job (and i was patient trying to help them out if they listen) I had a choice to switch to mine.
Sure it easy, pld wouldn't have to do anything to do their job. Sure it be impactful in a negative way, and sure it make pld useful, until you realize now you really have made the job a bad job to play.and no I want to do my job and actually earn it.

[thefinalrune]

I'll be honest, I've not read any of the replies in this thread. I just want to show my support for the OP. As a former PLD missing his tanking days I thoroughly support this idea.

Thumbs up from me, kudos on the idea.