[dev1017] Job Adjustments and Refinements

[hiko]

@RDM melee

Want to do damage?
Atma: RR/SS/Apoc
Almace/DA ToM Sword/none/white tathlum
Zelus/torque(or Torero)/suppa/brutal
goliard/dusk+1/keen(or heed)/rajas
atheling/goading(or ninurta)/nashira/dusk+1

You can then at least say you'll be doing more damage than PLD anyway.

because pld cant cap haste and DW almace/DA?

[Malamasala]

Why is PLD on that list lol, no job needs more work

The rest I agree with though, other than maybe SAM and SCH since they both get sidelined for WAR and BLM or WHM.

Why on that list?

1) Every single update adds new PLD gear.
2) I keep seeing PLDs in my LS solo holding NMs because frankly they have unlimited MP and take little damage. If they got any new ability to tank, they'd be unkillable. I even know of PLDs who accidentally got 3 VT mobs aggro and they just wittled down all 3 solo. I'm sure they had relic shield though, but it is still a silly strong job when you can just go out and solo a bunch of monsters without fear of dying. If my SMN for example had 3 VT on the avatar, it would be dead in 5 seconds. And avatars have 50% damage reduction.

[Korpg]

Why on that list?

1) Every single update adds new PLD gear.
2) I keep seeing PLDs in my LS solo holding NMs because frankly they have unlimited MP and take little damage. If they got any new ability to tank, they'd be unkillable. I even know of PLDs who accidentally got 3 VT mobs aggro and they just wittled down all 3 solo. I'm sure they had relic shield though, but it is still a silly strong job when you can just go out and solo a bunch of monsters without fear of dying. If my SMN for example had 3 VT on the avatar, it would be dead in 5 seconds. And avatars have 50% damage reduction.

You haven't heard of the "Hundred Shields" thing?

Also, SMN needs a major update, bad! We got what, near squat in killing ability since before abyssea came out.

We got 2 new avatars, one defensive and one "maybe" offensive, and that offensive one was like a new Nether Blast or whatever Diabolos's 2hr is. Well, at least on anything important.

[Glamdring]

Pls halp, my job is broken because it doesn't deal the most damage.

Yeah dammit! where's my freaking 3k+ bard nuke?!

seriously, you hit the nail on the head, everyone acts like their job should be the damage king, and if it isn't SE is neglecting it. They aren't. The various jobs are all designed to be INCOMPLETE! This was done to foster party-based play. Job skills overlap so that any of several jobs can be used to fill a party niche, but even then how that niche is approached by any give job is different. Even beast, which was actually designed to largely solo lacks any native healing ability, relegating it to either inferior healing off its sub-job, its pet or else a good deal of downtime while you rest.

SE has always-to an extent-made every job look outside of itself for the solutions to its shortcomings. I have this sneaking suspicion that SE is actually still committed to party-based play (despite all the jags demanding their job be made capable of soloing Absolute Virtue naked with a level 1 club) and designs their job changes with this in mind. To a large extent, I think they succeed, but players generally can't seem to see beyond the damage number for the highest hit. Wrong way to evaluate jobs people, by that standard every caster but black or blue mage is "useless" as an example.

Some party roles aren't even to produce damage. A puller in a party that's really rolling (with no downtime) should only be doing whatever damage their pull technique (presumably a ranged attack, unless you use a bard) does, with them on the way to get the next whatever. Healers, whack away if you've got the time and can live but expect to be taken to task if I die because you were too busy trying to melee. Tanks... ninja might be capable of some respectable damage even if pld isn't but your job is to keep the mob off of my back, the damage is a bonus. Support roles, depends on your tools and what you are asked to support, but within the realms of that I expect that you do that (within reason, if you are support, puller, back-up healer, main sleeper and chest popper you may have your hands just a bit full).

So, this thread started with RDM getting no love.... if I may be so presumptuous to point out, even if you had a large number would have been in here QQing about how whatever love you got was the wrong thing. RDM is a multipurpose job, and the players I've watched all seem to like different roles, so your DD rdms would whine about curing, the healer-types would whine about NOT getting cures, etc. until all of you can agree on what you want how the hell is SE supposed to accomodate you with a few tweaks?

[Malacite]

^ err, what? Generalizing a bit much there aren't you?

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH, doesn't have the option to melee like RDM (who can now deal pretty good damage with Chant) and gets outclassed by pretty much all the other support classes in that respect too.

At least at 75, the 70 BPs were semi-valuable for hate-free damage. But even that's pretty much been taken away (especially inside Abyssea) with all the recent updates. Never mind that avatars feed the mob 10 TP per swing, for often sub-par damage outside of abyssea.


So yes, SMN has ever right to complain, just as it has since it's implementation. For whatever reason(s), it seems to be the hardest job for SE to balance.


EDIT: And as far as BRD goes, you can argue that they contribute a tonne of damage by way of buffing the DD's (though I suppose that's not enough for a minority of whiners out there.)

[Soundwave]

After all the talk of summoner adjustments (While SE wont do adjustments on the jobs nobody really plays.) I really interested to see whats actually in store for the job.

[Alhanelem]

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH

I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell. SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

[Glamdring]

^ err, what? Generalizing a bit much there aren't you?

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH, doesn't have the option to melee like RDM (who can now deal pretty good damage with Chant) and gets outclassed by pretty much all the other support classes in that respect too.

At least at 75, the 70 BPs were semi-valuable for hate-free damage. But even that's pretty much been taken away (especially inside Abyssea) with all the recent updates. Never mind that avatars feed the mob 10 TP per swing, for often sub-par damage outside of abyssea.


So yes, SMN has ever right to complain, just as it has since it's implementation. For whatever reason(s), it seems to be the hardest job for SE to balance.


EDIT: And as far as BRD goes, you can argue that they contribute a tonne of damage by way of buffing the DD's (though I suppose that's not enough for a minority of whiners out there.)

the bard comment was sarcasm. And thank you for making my point, even if you didn't intend to. Bard's contribution isn't in what they do themselves so much, but in what they make the party they are supporting do. I don't actually WANT bard to be nuking (but make requiem work on SOMETHING dammit!), because bard is not a nuking job. We can be a fairly decent melee if we dual daggers, but that's not the thrust of the job and I don't expect any changes to make that different... nor do I want it.

the point was not every job can be the top DD job, nor should they be. And yes, I am generalizing. Read all 20 of the job forums, you'll notice a common theme: all 20 jobs complaining that they aren't the top job in the game. You've got whms asking for a massive nuke spell and a melee DD set with JA to match, dnc whining about wanting raise and RR, Everyjob but nin whining to get DW 5, the list goes on.

My point was that it's entirely possible that the reason your job (whatever it is) isn't the top DD in the game is that the designers don't want it to be. They may change the method from job to job but the general ratio is that the more a job can do offensively, the less they can do defensively. Example dark-awesome at 2 things, damage and sucking up all of the MP of several healers. Now abyssea has largely broken this ratio, which is unfortunate since this is pretty much what game balance has always been.

Summoner has always done respectable damage, and regardless of the whining of a few they really still do. Certainly, a sam hits harder than your avatar, they're built for it. The balance? You can be out of range inflicting your damage while the Sam is in there eating AoEs, and there's no better defense than being out of damage range (a good thing since a smn's defense is so pathetic you can die if someone just hurts your feelings). Red mage too still does decent damage. Are they going to outdamage a Sam on melee or a Blm nuking? No. But they do tend to out-live them.

All of this is still with the caveat "unless you're gimp". If your out there with level 30-40 skills fighting level 90 mobs you deserve to die, call it an educational oportunity.

[Raksha]

I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell.* SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

*Without brew

[Sparthos]

the bard comment was sarcasm. the point was not every job can be the top DD job, nor should they be. And yes, I am generalizing. Read all 20 of the job forums, you'll notice a common theme: all 20 jobs complaining that they aren't the top job in the game. You've got whms asking for a massive nuke spell and a melee DD set with JA to match, dnc whining about wanting raise and RR, Everyjob but nin whining to get DW 5, the list goes on.

My point was that it's entirely possible that the reason your job (whatever it is) isn't the top DD in the game is that the designers don't want it to be. They may change the method from job to job but the general ratio is that the more a job can do offensively, the less they can do defensively. Example dark-awesome at 2 things, damage and sucking up all of the MP of several healers. Now abyssea has largely broken this ratio, which is unfortunate since this is pretty much what game balance has always been.

Except every complaint isn't a baseless one.

A job like WAR may not need adjustments because it can do its job properly but would you call a request to make BST relevant simply whining? How about PUP? RNG? SCH?

While you may have a point with RDM where the job lacks shine within Abyssea, the class will largely fix itself outside. You have melee complaints here and there but the job is largely functional. It can support, nuke, cure and solo relatively well.

RDM is in good place outside Abyssea. Short of a Phenilune type Cure spell and some melee tweaks to satisfy the die-hard fencers, the job will go back to being support fluff at anything that needs a support line.

Then you have classes like BST PUP and RNG where SE has a vision but without patches these jobs will still be on the never used list in party content. Why?

Beastmaster lacks offensive might, has to choose between buffing the pet ("pet:" sets) or buffing yourself (typical DD gear) and has few tools to improve the power of the pet. In a pool full of easier to play DD, BST suffers from being a house divided.

It can solo awesome but its party mechanics have always been suspect and this is supposedly a party-oriented game right? Where are the BST adjustments I say to SE.

Ranger is supposed to be a ranged offensive yet can't help but wind up dead if played correctly. With little to no threat reduction tools, most RNG become a mage's nuisance while doing less damage than a standard DD in the fray eating AOE.

Why field a Ranger when it can't stay at a distance for long? Why give BLM Enmity Douse yet snub RNG?

Puppetmaster suffers from pet job syndrome where the automaton is just too clunky to deal with, maneuvers eat up master DPS and overall it's lack of purpose or direction leads towards mediocrity in the over-saturated world of DD.

Who cares if you have multiple puppet frames when the mage AI is hopelessly stupid, the WAR maton has crappy melee ability and the RNG frame can't stay a distance without doing terrible damage?

Puppetmaster needs help and the tweaks SE tosses around add very little to the underlying problems.

SE can't fix everything but some classes have legitimate concerns that should continue to be voiced until fixed.

And lastly Summoner.

I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell. SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

In Abyssea Bards can pass as viable DD and your 15000 damage means little without proper procs anyway. I can 2-shot Apademak on COR but does that make Corsair anything special when the brews off in Abyssea? Nope.

Abyssea is a lost cause anyway. SE is supposed to be looking to the future of the game where all classes are supposed to "matter". The proc system makes a handful of jobs useful and everyone else is stuck trying to look useful.

Outside in the real world SMN has more of a fighting chance when SE gets around to tough enough mobs where being close to a mob means winding up dead. Voidwatch brought some life back into SMN-friendly endgame but frankly the lackluster drops and unpolished event leaves one scratching their heads and wondering "This is the heir to Abyssea?"