[dev1017] Job Adjustments and Refinements

[Leonlionheart]

@RDM melee

Want to do damage?
Atma: RR/SS/Apoc
Almace/DA ToM Sword/none/white tathlum
Zelus/torque(or Torero)/suppa/brutal
goliard/dusk+1/keen(or heed)/rajas
atheling/goading(or ninurta)/nashira/dusk+1

You can then at least say you'll be doing more damage than PLD anyway.

[hiko]

@RDM melee

Want to do damage?
Atma: RR/SS/Apoc
Almace/DA ToM Sword/none/white tathlum
Zelus/torque(or Torero)/suppa/brutal
goliard/dusk+1/keen(or heed)/rajas
atheling/goading(or ninurta)/nashira/dusk+1

You can then at least say you'll be doing more damage than PLD anyway.

because pld cant cap haste and DW almace/DA?

[Leonlionheart]

because pld cant cap haste and DW almace/DA?

because PLD can't cast haste on itself

[Malacite]

Ah delicious RDM tears...

Seriously though, I think we can safely say that we're at the point where no further major tweaks are necessary, save for perhaps a few cases;

RDM: I see a lot of people crying about Cure V, and when I hear it it sends off alarm bells in my head screaming out "PINK MAGE ONRY!!!" and the return of lolWHM. I don't see how these 2 jobs could get Cure V at this point with screwing over WHM outside of Abyssea once more. Rather, why not give RDM better enfeebling spells - Slow 3, Dia 4, Gravity/Silence II etc...

THF: Make treasure hunter actually work? Really sick of landing TH10+ and getting jack squat...

PLD: PLD is actually largely OK (for the moment) outside of Abyssea surprisingly enough, but that could very well change as Voidwatch & the rest of endgame evolves. As others have suggested, changing Cover to a job trait and perhaps making Sentinel 3 minutes would go a long ways towards fixing this job once & for all.

DRK: Change Insurgency to a crit WS (or failing that Quietus I suppose) problem solved >_>b

BST: The new jugs have been a huge success, and things are pretty good for BST. It does kind of suck however that Charm is basically a forgotten ability at this point.

RNG: So, I believe SE already had the fix for this job planned but they scrapped it for some reason I can't begin to fathom. Implement that enmity reduction based on range and you fix a lot of RNG's woes. The job doesn't need more firepower, it needs more ways to stay alive. Jishnu's Radiance + Dead Aim sure isn't helping in that regard.

NIN: The only remaining issue with NIN is still Shuriken. They're actually quite pointless now given the DPS on the newer katana, and even if SE gives us new ones they'd have to make them cost-effective unlike all the previous ones.

DRG: DRG's in a pretty good place now I'd say. The wyvern still feels a little too fragile though.

SMN: SMN's always been the red-headed step child of this game. I'm not even sure what SE could do at this point that wouldn't result in making the job too good. I do think that summoning skill with relation to avatar performance (HP, attack, def etc) and BP timers ought to be addressed however. And please, remove the 15% damage penalty on Avatar's Favor. You finally gave us a tool to encourage keeping avatars out, but then include a rather back-handed nerf to their damage which is already pitiful in most cases.

[Alhanelem]

Scholar should get cure V before anyone else. the job is in a serious rut- it can't trigger anything that isn't triggerable by other jobs, is a sub par healer in abyssea because cure IV isn't good enough anymore, and rarely does anyone make use of any of the things unique about the job. Helices are strong and a high point of the job, but I can't think of much else that gets good use in abyssea. Scholar was at the peak of its strength in old Dynamis and now it just feels like it's lagging behind a bit, simply because it doesn't offer much that no one else can do.

remove the 15% damage penalty on Avatar's Favor.

It's not a % damage penalty, it's attack and magic attack minus. The physical attack loss is almost unnoticeable; just build for that if you want to use Favor.

[Malacite]

^ err, what? Generalizing a bit much there aren't you?

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH, doesn't have the option to melee like RDM (who can now deal pretty good damage with Chant) and gets outclassed by pretty much all the other support classes in that respect too.

At least at 75, the 70 BPs were semi-valuable for hate-free damage. But even that's pretty much been taken away (especially inside Abyssea) with all the recent updates. Never mind that avatars feed the mob 10 TP per swing, for often sub-par damage outside of abyssea.


So yes, SMN has ever right to complain, just as it has since it's implementation. For whatever reason(s), it seems to be the hardest job for SE to balance.


EDIT: And as far as BRD goes, you can argue that they contribute a tonne of damage by way of buffing the DD's (though I suppose that's not enough for a minority of whiners out there.)

[Glamdring]

^ err, what? Generalizing a bit much there aren't you?

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH, doesn't have the option to melee like RDM (who can now deal pretty good damage with Chant) and gets outclassed by pretty much all the other support classes in that respect too.

At least at 75, the 70 BPs were semi-valuable for hate-free damage. But even that's pretty much been taken away (especially inside Abyssea) with all the recent updates. Never mind that avatars feed the mob 10 TP per swing, for often sub-par damage outside of abyssea.


So yes, SMN has ever right to complain, just as it has since it's implementation. For whatever reason(s), it seems to be the hardest job for SE to balance.


EDIT: And as far as BRD goes, you can argue that they contribute a tonne of damage by way of buffing the DD's (though I suppose that's not enough for a minority of whiners out there.)

the bard comment was sarcasm. And thank you for making my point, even if you didn't intend to. Bard's contribution isn't in what they do themselves so much, but in what they make the party they are supporting do. I don't actually WANT bard to be nuking (but make requiem work on SOMETHING dammit!), because bard is not a nuking job. We can be a fairly decent melee if we dual daggers, but that's not the thrust of the job and I don't expect any changes to make that different... nor do I want it.

the point was not every job can be the top DD job, nor should they be. And yes, I am generalizing. Read all 20 of the job forums, you'll notice a common theme: all 20 jobs complaining that they aren't the top job in the game. You've got whms asking for a massive nuke spell and a melee DD set with JA to match, dnc whining about wanting raise and RR, Everyjob but nin whining to get DW 5, the list goes on.

My point was that it's entirely possible that the reason your job (whatever it is) isn't the top DD in the game is that the designers don't want it to be. They may change the method from job to job but the general ratio is that the more a job can do offensively, the less they can do defensively. Example dark-awesome at 2 things, damage and sucking up all of the MP of several healers. Now abyssea has largely broken this ratio, which is unfortunate since this is pretty much what game balance has always been.

Summoner has always done respectable damage, and regardless of the whining of a few they really still do. Certainly, a sam hits harder than your avatar, they're built for it. The balance? You can be out of range inflicting your damage while the Sam is in there eating AoEs, and there's no better defense than being out of damage range (a good thing since a smn's defense is so pathetic you can die if someone just hurts your feelings). Red mage too still does decent damage. Are they going to outdamage a Sam on melee or a Blm nuking? No. But they do tend to out-live them.

All of this is still with the caveat "unless you're gimp". If your out there with level 30-40 skills fighting level 90 mobs you deserve to die, call it an educational oportunity.

[Sparthos]

the bard comment was sarcasm. the point was not every job can be the top DD job, nor should they be. And yes, I am generalizing. Read all 20 of the job forums, you'll notice a common theme: all 20 jobs complaining that they aren't the top job in the game. You've got whms asking for a massive nuke spell and a melee DD set with JA to match, dnc whining about wanting raise and RR, Everyjob but nin whining to get DW 5, the list goes on.

My point was that it's entirely possible that the reason your job (whatever it is) isn't the top DD in the game is that the designers don't want it to be. They may change the method from job to job but the general ratio is that the more a job can do offensively, the less they can do defensively. Example dark-awesome at 2 things, damage and sucking up all of the MP of several healers. Now abyssea has largely broken this ratio, which is unfortunate since this is pretty much what game balance has always been.

Except every complaint isn't a baseless one.

A job like WAR may not need adjustments because it can do its job properly but would you call a request to make BST relevant simply whining? How about PUP? RNG? SCH?

While you may have a point with RDM where the job lacks shine within Abyssea, the class will largely fix itself outside. You have melee complaints here and there but the job is largely functional. It can support, nuke, cure and solo relatively well.

RDM is in good place outside Abyssea. Short of a Phenilune type Cure spell and some melee tweaks to satisfy the die-hard fencers, the job will go back to being support fluff at anything that needs a support line.

Then you have classes like BST PUP and RNG where SE has a vision but without patches these jobs will still be on the never used list in party content. Why?

Beastmaster lacks offensive might, has to choose between buffing the pet ("pet:" sets) or buffing yourself (typical DD gear) and has few tools to improve the power of the pet. In a pool full of easier to play DD, BST suffers from being a house divided.

It can solo awesome but its party mechanics have always been suspect and this is supposedly a party-oriented game right? Where are the BST adjustments I say to SE.

Ranger is supposed to be a ranged offensive yet can't help but wind up dead if played correctly. With little to no threat reduction tools, most RNG become a mage's nuisance while doing less damage than a standard DD in the fray eating AOE.

Why field a Ranger when it can't stay at a distance for long? Why give BLM Enmity Douse yet snub RNG?

Puppetmaster suffers from pet job syndrome where the automaton is just too clunky to deal with, maneuvers eat up master DPS and overall it's lack of purpose or direction leads towards mediocrity in the over-saturated world of DD.

Who cares if you have multiple puppet frames when the mage AI is hopelessly stupid, the WAR maton has crappy melee ability and the RNG frame can't stay a distance without doing terrible damage?

Puppetmaster needs help and the tweaks SE tosses around add very little to the underlying problems.

SE can't fix everything but some classes have legitimate concerns that should continue to be voiced until fixed.

And lastly Summoner.

I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell. SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

In Abyssea Bards can pass as viable DD and your 15000 damage means little without proper procs anyway. I can 2-shot Apademak on COR but does that make Corsair anything special when the brews off in Abyssea? Nope.

Abyssea is a lost cause anyway. SE is supposed to be looking to the future of the game where all classes are supposed to "matter". The proc system makes a handful of jobs useful and everyone else is stuck trying to look useful.

Outside in the real world SMN has more of a fighting chance when SE gets around to tough enough mobs where being close to a mob means winding up dead. Voidwatch brought some life back into SMN-friendly endgame but frankly the lackluster drops and unpolished event leaves one scratching their heads and wondering "This is the heir to Abyssea?"

[Dallas]

(a good thing since a smn's defense is so pathetic you can die if someone just hurts your feelings)

I have KO'd so many SMN over the years.

[Soundwave]

After all the talk of summoner adjustments (While SE wont do adjustments on the jobs nobody really plays.) I really interested to see whats actually in store for the job.