[dev1017] Job Adjustments and Refinements

[Razushu]

Actually, I think Al wouldn't mind having to cycle thru buffs.

Not talking bout Al it's Dallas and the anti-SMN brigade that say I can't

[Korpg]

Not talking bout Al it's Dallas and the anti-SMN brigade that say I can't

I wouldn't think of the other people as anti-SMN, but more of broadly anti-melee-SMN and specifically anti-Dallas-ideaology brigade.

[Malamasala]

Of course if anyone wonders why SMN and DRK would be similar, it is because of the following points.

SMN 2 handed weapon user = DRK 2 handed weapon user
SMN has MP = DRK has MP
SMNs avoid casting spells when they can (preferably keep the same avatar out and not resummoning) = DRK avoiding casting spells when they can (to not interrupt melee swings)
SMN uses JA's (BPs) = DRK uses JA's (Soul eater and such)

The jobs are played identical (except for the obvious differences in WSes and JAs). Run in, melee all you can, use JAs when available.

That said, it isn't the ONLY way to play SMN. You can sub WHM and heal, sub COR and buff, sub RDM and refresh, toss up alexander 2 hour and zerg, kite NMs, etc. But the very basics of the job, is very similar to DRK.

I also believe a DRK could sub WHM and main heal decently. But for some reason that doesn't make them mages. Go figure.

[Razushu]

Of course if anyone wonders why SMN and DRK would be similar, it is because of the following points.

SMN 2 handed weapon user = DRK 2 handed weapon user
SMN has MP = DRK has MP
SMNs avoid casting spells when they can (preferably keep the same avatar out and not resummoning) = DRK avoiding casting spells when they can (to not interrupt melee swings)
SMN uses JA's (BPs) = DRK uses JA's (Soul eater and such)

The jobs are played identical (except for the obvious differences in WSes and JAs). Run in, melee all you can, use JAs when available.

That said, it isn't the ONLY way to play SMN. You can sub WHM and heal, sub COR and buff, sub RDM and refresh, toss up alexander 2 hour and zerg, kite NMs, etc. But the very basics of the job, is very similar to DRK.

I also believe a DRK could sub WHM and main heal decently. But for some reason that doesn't make them mages. Go figure.

First off I never said that you can't gear a SMN to melee(every job in this game can be geared to melee). If the mob is safe to melee go ahead.

1)SMN 2 handed weapon user = DRK 2 handed weapon user

so is WHM, SCH and BLM

2)SMN has MP = DRK has MP

MP is not a melee trait see SAM, NIN and WAR

3)SMNs avoid casting spells when they can (preferably keep the same avatar out and not resummoning) = DRK avoiding casting spells when they can (to not interrupt melee swings)

In a party SMN is probably cycling avatar's to give buffs unless the target is so weak the buffs are superflous(in which case go nuts lol). Solo unless the target is of kitten level danger the avatar will stay out til fight ends. If the monster is tough chances are you will need a recast, in which case hate=death if your avatar can't pull hate off you with a single BP chances are you are about to die.

4)SMN uses JA's (BPs) = DRK uses JA's (Soul eater and such)

Except in this case BPs are pet commands, and are more akin to spells in fact are designed that way (Hastega= spell haste)

5)The jobs are played identical (except for the obvious differences in WSes and JAs). Run in, melee all you can, use JAs when available.

what game are you playing? honestly

6)That said, it isn't the ONLY way to play SMN. You can sub WHM and heal, sub COR and buff, sub RDM and refresh, toss up alexander 2 hour and zerg, kite NMs, etc. But the very basics of the job, is very similar to DRK.

again SMN=/=DRK

lets break it down

FF Canon* SMN=Backline mage DRK= HEAVY DD

physical toughness SMN=weakest in the game DRK= up there with the top tier

Gear SMN= CLoth armor DRK= heavy armor

Weapons SMN= mainly stat boosting DRK= DD mostly

Highest weapon skills SMN= B DRK=A+

access to weapon skills SMN= missing several DRK= gets all natively

Job traits SMN=non offensive DRK= pretty offensive

Job abilities SMN= supportive DRK = mostly offense based

*I know in this game it's not always the case, but for the most part it seems to remain true

I don't think I missed anything but a comparison side to side points out the flaws in your theory. For the record I'm not attacking SMN melee, I just take issue with the SMN = Heavy DD view point.

I also believe a DRK could sub WHM and main heal decently. But for some reason that doesn't make them mages. Go figure.

First off DRK can get a max of 18% cure potency(if the waste ASA and MKD rewards on it) have a tiny MP pool and not much in the way of MP management gear, Then add in the fact they have no native way of buffing/curing a party your and your argument has more holes than a fishing net. I can't decide whether your trolling or not and I kinda hope you are

[Duelle]

SMN=Backline mage

<snip>

For the record I'm not attacking SMN melee, I just take issue with the SMN = Heavy DD view point.

The problem on a concept level is that SMN is about heavy damage dealing...coming from the avatar/eidolon/summon. That's why people remembered Rydia in IV, Dagger and Eiko in IX, and hell, even Yuna in X.

On the spellcasting side, summoners prior to XI's incarnation were backed up by a secondary school of magic. The devs assumed this would be covered by the subjob system, until people figured out that elemental spells cast at half-level profficiency due to skill ratings were (rightfully) stupidly gimp. The fact that healing spells had no such penalty did nothing to help.

[Razushu]

The problem on a concept level is that SMN is about heavy damage dealing...coming from the avatar/eidolon/summon. That's why people remembered Rydia in IV, Dagger and Eiko in IX, and hell, even Yuna in X.

On the spellcasting side, summoners prior to XI's incarnation were backed up by a secondary school of magic. The devs assumed this would be covered by the subjob system, until people figured out that elemental spells cast at half-level profficiency due to skill ratings were (rightfully) stupidly gimp. The fact that healing spells had no such penalty did nothing to help.

Summons were the most poswerful magic in the games, but they seem to have ditched Massive damage for damage/support combo here.

[Duelle]

Summons were the most poswerful magic in the games, but they seem to have ditched Massive damage for damage/support combo here.

Which kind of failed in the context of parties because of how the trends developed when it came to summoner.

Granted, the job is not an easy one to adapt to an MMO context. The avatars would have probably benefitted from having specialized roles rather than being capable of attacking with some support. Then you could have your damage dealing avatars (probably Ifrit, Leviathan, Garuda, Ramuh), your defensive/healing avatars (Carbuncle, Shiva), and your tanking/utility avatars (Titan, Fenrir). Spirits could have been more like "aspects" that act as that second school of magic that I mentioned Summoners prior to XI were known to have. That might have created a better basis of what the job could/should be capable of instead of being so reliant on its subjob to fill in the gaps between blood pacts (this refers to back when it was a universal 1-minute timer, not the rage/ward split that came much later).

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

The various jobs are all designed to be INCOMPLETE! This was done to foster party-based play.

You mean like how monks can do lots of damage, but can't tank?

One problem right now is that everybody looks at the horribly broken jobs and wants to be equally broken. This is probably because they know that SE is afraid to nerf even the worst balance problems, so the broken uberjobs will stay that way.

Another is that nobody invites damage dealers to deal damage, so jobs like DRG and SCH which can do plenty of damage are still passed over because people only care about procs and those jobs don't have them. Once you have your procs covered you have enough DDs to kill whatever, so why bother inviting more people to split up the loot?

[Malamasala]

The avatars would have probably benefitted from having specialized roles rather than being capable of attacking with some support.

No they wouldn't. The job is pretty much perfect as is, except for the penalties applied. It should be a moderate DD and moderate support, but it is a slightly below moderate DD and useless support. Less global timers, slightly less MP costs, more ward potency and viola, perfection.

Well, you'd have to tweak avatars favors too if you want to count it as useful, and same with spirits. But Summoners have all tools they'd ever need... if they worked.