[dev1017] Yonin/Innin

[wish12oz]

ACCURACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE A MEANINGFUL MECHANIC. CAPPING IT IS SUPPOSED TO INVOLVE MAKING SACRIFICES.

It requires great sacrifice on the part of 1 handed weapon users, and not on the part of 2 handed weapon users, how do you fail to comprehend this, and that it is the problem? Not to mention the fact that as the level cap goes up, dex will increase giving even more of an advantage to 2 handed users.

EDIT: Maybe I should lay this out for you because you don't seem to understand the mechanic and the main problem.

For 2 handed weapons, dex is turned into acc at a rate of 3 acc per 4 dex.
For 1 handed weapons its converted at 2 acc per 4 dex.

Currently at 90, 145~ dex is currently where my ninja sits, using the 1 handed conversion, this gives you 72 accuracy, using the 2 handed forumula this is worth 108 accuracy.
36 accuracy is 17% hit rate, or 17% damage, ITS A BIG DEAL, and it's just going to get worse as levels increase and dex goes higher.

[scaevola]

Wow yeah man, if only dual wielders got something to compensate for having like 30 less accuracy

maybe having what amounts to a second haste stat that stacks with the first might help

why, such an advantage might be considered so massive, i could see it being a fair justification for 2-handers to have more-favorable dex>accuracy conversions in the first place!

EDIT: I would not argue that NINs will do less damage than WARs, but the questions (real questions, not rhetorical ones) are

1) how do they do when stacked up against other two-hander jobs, ones that are not considered far and away the strongest job in the game with really no room for debate, and

2) if the not-at-all uncontroversial claim that NIN damage is too low turns out to be true, is it so low to justify buffing it in light of all of the other shit NIN has going for it? If anyone "deserves" to be the top DD, it's RNG; they literally can't do anything but DD, and even that has clunky restrictions.

[wish12oz]

Wow yeah man, if only dual wielders got something to compensate for having like 30 less accuracy

maybe having what amounts to a second haste stat that stacks with the first might help

THIS:
EDIT: Maybe I should lay this out for you because you don't seem to understand the mechanic and the main problem.

For 2 handed weapons, dex is turned into acc at a rate of 3 acc per 4 dex.
For 1 handed weapons its converted at 2 acc per 4 dex.

Currently at 90, 145~ dex is currently where my ninja sits, using the 1 handed conversion, this gives you 72 accuracy, using the 2 handed forumula this is worth 108 accuracy.
36 accuracy is 17% hit rate, or 17% damage, ITS A BIG DEAL, and it's just going to get worse as levels increase and dex goes higher.


And seriously, even with that increased attack speed, YOU'RE 30% BEHIND ON NINJA. Seriously kid, right now, when acc is not a problem, an ukon war beats a kannagi ninja by 30%, that's with the ninja using the best possible gear and having capped acc and both using meat and having the same buffs. Give both just haste or give both haste and double march, which caps the ninjas delay reduction, and not the wars and the ninja is 30% behind. Give the war capped delay reduction too and you're looking at a 50% damage difference. What I am saying is this is not acceptable. Why you think it is, is just beyond my comprehension apparently.

And since you ask, Amano SAM or Masa SAM, or Calabolg DRK Apoc DRK, are all 10-30% above Kannagi NIN also. Ryuhinge DRG would be just under a WARs potential, and MNK is even with NIN, since you know, lol1handedacc. Anything else?

[scaevola]

And since you ask, Amano SAM or Masa SAM, or Calabolg DRK Apoc DRK, are all 10-30% above Kannagi NIN also. Ryuhinge DRG would be just under a WARs potential, and MNK is even with NIN, since you know, lol1handedacc. Anything else?

A few things, mostly ending in "Ichi" or "Ni". All these dudes cut loose on the same target and only the NIN and MNK (maybe the SAM) are alive 2 minutes in.

[wish12oz]

A few things, mostly ending in "Ichi" or "Ni".

This doesn't even make sense.

[scaevola]

This doesn't even make sense.

I am not surprised you think that!

Ninja is only useful for a DD tank, if it can't do enough damage to keep up with other melees, it's useless. To make Ninja not keep up enough to hold hate, all you need to do is fight T or higher mobs. With everything ninja has going for it right now, Ninja is 30% behind, and can't hold hate outside abyssea on any new content.

So enlighten me; who IS doing enough damage while maintaining enough survivability to tank right now? (by the way if you are crying because somebody wanted to use a PLD in voidwatch this conversation is over)

[scaevola]

oh, also, re: you being a sillyhead

Innin is completely useless to anyone that knows how to play ninja. It takes all of 30-40 seconds to cap your enmity, and after that as long as you had the last action on the mob, the mob will be facing you, and ninjas attack really fast, meaning the mob will just about always be facing you meaning the only effect you get from innin is -evasion, and maybe 1 attack out of 20 you'll gain the crit rate increase from it. To fix innin you need to remove the "You must stand behind the mob" requirement from it.

If everybody caps enmity in 30 seconds and NINs tank by swinging really fast and thus perpetually being the last person to connect a hit, why do you need to do more damage to effectly tank higher-tier content?

[wish12oz]

I am not surprised you think that!

Why don't you enlighten me then.

So enlighten me; who IS doing enough damage while maintaining enough survivability to tank right now? (by the way if you are crying because somebody wanted to use a PLD in voidwatch this conversation is over)

If the mobs are difficult at all, no one is maintaining enough damage and survivability to tank effectively. Ninja should be doing it, but its even harder now then it was before the level cap increase, and as I've repeatedly pointed out, ninja was pretty useless before the level cap increase, so it's even more useless now outside of abyssea and old weak content, like sky/einherjar/etc.

But hey, maybe that's why when you go to dynamis there's people fighting EPs, and that's it. Because fighting the VT mobs is to difficult because there's no one that can effectively tank.

And mobs in voidwatch are to difficult for ninja to tank, since your acc is so poor and you can't keep hate, but hey, maybe when they increase the level by 5, you'll be able to manage on weak old content original tier Voidwalkers, but you won't be useful for the new ones, or any other new content they add.

[wish12oz]

2) if the not-at-all uncontroversial claim that NIN damage is too low turns out to be true, is it so low to justify buffing it in light of all of the other shit NIN has going for it? If anyone "deserves" to be the top DD, it's RNG; they literally can't do anything but DD, and even that has clunky restrictions.

Ninja is only useful for a DD tank, if it can't do enough damage to keep up with other melees, it's useless. To make Ninja not keep up enough to hold hate, all you need to do is fight T or higher mobs. With everything ninja has going for it right now, Ninja is 30% behind, and can't hold hate outside abyssea on any new content.