[dev1017] Yonin/Innin

[Ravenmore]

Really attack gear has always been lol if you could get acc in that same slot, and unlike the "sushi biulds" stacking as much attack gear as you could eating sushi with cap haste wouldn't hurt you. Before abyssea TPing in crit hit gear added little value WSing it was better. The crit hit weapon you couldn't swap out to WS so had to leave them on, or if you were mnk ther wasn't anything better. On any HNM at 75 no one had 95% acc on them with out food.

[scaevola]

Mithra, and I was giving up 1.5% haste, some attack and crit damage and lots of dex as well as some dual wield.

You had to give up DEX? And 1.5% Haste? Horrors!

Accuracy is supposed to be a meaningful mechanic. Eat pizza.

[wish12oz]

You had to give up DEX? And 1.5% Haste? Horrors!

Accuracy is supposed to be a meaningful mechanic. Eat pizza.

Just because you do not understand the benefit of capping crit rate through DEX, doesn't mean the concept is lost on those of us who like to do good damage.

Also: Ninja was already pretty far behind, losing ANYTHING, makes it more behind then it already was, and unable to be played with a decent group.

Really attack gear has always been lol if you could get acc in that same slot, and unlike the "sushi biulds" stacking as much attack gear as you could eating sushi with cap haste wouldn't hurt you. Before abyssea TPing in crit hit gear added little value WSing it was better. The crit hit weapon you couldn't swap out to WS so had to leave them on, or if you were mnk ther wasn't anything better. On any HNM at 75 no one had 95% acc on them with out food.

So, you think using sushi is ok, when other melees can use their normal gear, and eat meat.
So other melees get a bunch of attack increasing their damage even more, and ninjas get to... gain acc that other melees have no problem with at all.
So in reality the ninja is falling further behind, and the other melees are gaining even more of a damage advantage over the ninja, when the ninja was already 30%+ behind?
This is what you're saying is ok?

The problem is that you have to give up EVERYTHING for acc on NIN to hit a 'not even capped' acc rate. And then on top of that, Yonin, which is suppose to help you tank, actually drops your hit rate by 10% on average. (starts at 15%, moves to 5%)

[Ravenmore]

It has never been accepted to try to cap crit with dex seeing how we do not know mobs stats. We can geuss at it but on Exp mobs that spawn at differnt levels a there would be no way to know for sure if that 10 dex was capping crit hit rate. Thfs only used it on SA/TA since it was a direct mod to the JA it self.

[Ravenmore]

No other duel weild job can hit acc cap out side of abyssea. Before abyssea duel wield jobs had to eat sushi and only one 2hander could hit acc cap with out hasso. Yes I see no problem with it since I play blu, not only do I have to eat sushi outside of abyssea to land melee strikes I also have use it to make sure my spells land. Welcom to hybrid jobs.

[wish12oz]

No other duel weild job can hit acc cap out side of abyssea. Before abyssea duel wield jobs had to eat sushi and only one 2hander could hit acc cap with out hasso. Yes I see no problem with it since I play blu, not only do I have to eat sushi outside of abyssea to land melee strikes I also have use it to make sure my spells land. Welcom to hybrid jobs.

More like "Welcome back to the gutter."
This has been a problem since the 2 handed update and why 1 handed jobs have been crap since then. Want to know why ninjas were not around before abyssea? Because the acc problems made them crap, so all the melees were SAM, WAR, DRG, DRK.... The point of this thread is to call attention to why 1 handed jobs, ninja specifically are crap, and what SE needs to do to further improve yonin/innin to make ninja useful on anything harder then even match.

Maybe you 'see no problem with it' and like being the underdog or whatever, trying so hard to compete and only able to do half the damage of a 2 handed melee, but there are those of us who think this imbalance should be corrected so that there isn't such a large damage differance between 1 handed and 2 handed weapon users on T+ mobs.

Also: it's not very hard to watch your crit rate. You simply count and see if you should add more dex, it's not rocket science, it's simple counting, if you can't do it, I feel bad for you. And having a good crit rate is also helpful since ninja has access to so much +crit damage, so instead of simply doubling your damage when you crit, you can do much more. It's what happens inside abyssea that makes ninja useful, lots of crits, crit damage, and no acc issues without using lolsushi.

[scaevola]

Just because you do not understand the benefit of capping crit rate through DEX, doesn't mean the concept is lost on those of us who like to do good damage.

ACCURACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE A MEANINGFUL MECHANIC. CAPPING IT IS SUPPOSED TO INVOLVE MAKING SACRIFICES.

[wish12oz]

ACCURACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE A MEANINGFUL MECHANIC. CAPPING IT IS SUPPOSED TO INVOLVE MAKING SACRIFICES.

It requires great sacrifice on the part of 1 handed weapon users, and not on the part of 2 handed weapon users, how do you fail to comprehend this, and that it is the problem? Not to mention the fact that as the level cap goes up, dex will increase giving even more of an advantage to 2 handed users.

EDIT: Maybe I should lay this out for you because you don't seem to understand the mechanic and the main problem.

For 2 handed weapons, dex is turned into acc at a rate of 3 acc per 4 dex.
For 1 handed weapons its converted at 2 acc per 4 dex.

Currently at 90, 145~ dex is currently where my ninja sits, using the 1 handed conversion, this gives you 72 accuracy, using the 2 handed forumula this is worth 108 accuracy.
36 accuracy is 17% hit rate, or 17% damage, ITS A BIG DEAL, and it's just going to get worse as levels increase and dex goes higher.

[scaevola]

Wow yeah man, if only dual wielders got something to compensate for having like 30 less accuracy

maybe having what amounts to a second haste stat that stacks with the first might help

why, such an advantage might be considered so massive, i could see it being a fair justification for 2-handers to have more-favorable dex>accuracy conversions in the first place!

EDIT: I would not argue that NINs will do less damage than WARs, but the questions (real questions, not rhetorical ones) are

1) how do they do when stacked up against other two-hander jobs, ones that are not considered far and away the strongest job in the game with really no room for debate, and

2) if the not-at-all uncontroversial claim that NIN damage is too low turns out to be true, is it so low to justify buffing it in light of all of the other shit NIN has going for it? If anyone "deserves" to be the top DD, it's RNG; they literally can't do anything but DD, and even that has clunky restrictions.

[wish12oz]

Wow yeah man, if only dual wielders got something to compensate for having like 30 less accuracy

maybe having what amounts to a second haste stat that stacks with the first might help

THIS:
EDIT: Maybe I should lay this out for you because you don't seem to understand the mechanic and the main problem.

For 2 handed weapons, dex is turned into acc at a rate of 3 acc per 4 dex.
For 1 handed weapons its converted at 2 acc per 4 dex.

Currently at 90, 145~ dex is currently where my ninja sits, using the 1 handed conversion, this gives you 72 accuracy, using the 2 handed forumula this is worth 108 accuracy.
36 accuracy is 17% hit rate, or 17% damage, ITS A BIG DEAL, and it's just going to get worse as levels increase and dex goes higher.


And seriously, even with that increased attack speed, YOU'RE 30% BEHIND ON NINJA. Seriously kid, right now, when acc is not a problem, an ukon war beats a kannagi ninja by 30%, that's with the ninja using the best possible gear and having capped acc and both using meat and having the same buffs. Give both just haste or give both haste and double march, which caps the ninjas delay reduction, and not the wars and the ninja is 30% behind. Give the war capped delay reduction too and you're looking at a 50% damage difference. What I am saying is this is not acceptable. Why you think it is, is just beyond my comprehension apparently.

And since you ask, Amano SAM or Masa SAM, or Calabolg DRK Apoc DRK, are all 10-30% above Kannagi NIN also. Ryuhinge DRG would be just under a WARs potential, and MNK is even with NIN, since you know, lol1handedacc. Anything else?