Claim System + Call for Help Code = Win

[Greatguardian]

That's bollocks, SE had no idea how popular Abyss was going to be.

It wasn't really that relevant before Abyss either, because the content simply wasn't there to clog. Problems with the claim system have really (and I mean really) been magnified by the game content we've got over the past year. In particular it's the fact that there's every type of player in Abyss from innocent care bear types to the cut-throat "stop having fun" people.

It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

It is not the game's fault that perma-casuals who have never done anything more "hardcore endgame" than Nyzul Isle have never been exposed to competitive play in FFXI. The fact, and I mean absolute fact, remains that Abyssea has made the game significantly less hyper-competitive than it has ever been.

If the FFXI Claim system survived 9 years of RotZ Kings, I promise you it is not suddenly glitching out in Abyssea. The fault is player error, period.

[Glamdring]

It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

Not true. Before Abyssea the consensus was that "the HNMLS were going to monopolize the NM, whoops, it's been up for .047 seconds, ___JacktardsLS got claim, see ya, we'll move to Orcish Overlord since these guys are stuck here, wait, we're not an HNMLS, we're not allowed to fight an HNM, let's just move to campaign."

Abyssea moved those HNMLS-types into direct competition with regular players in a general zone. Unfortunately, regular players refuse to relinquish all end-game type content to the exclusive use of those types, nor to become their mindless DD drones/stooges, thus we have conflict. If regular players would simply farm, pop and die within seconds to voluntarily surrender __NM to ___JacktardsLS as they are required to do according to the ___JacktardsLS Code of Conduct we wouldn't even be discussing this issue.

[blowfin]

It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

You're missing my point, it's become more of an issue because players of all types have been jammed together in the same content. No it wasn't as much of an issue before because HNM shells knew how to deal with it and it wasn't exploited on a "knowledgeable player vs. not so knowledgeable player" basis.

I'm not saying it's glitching, you're getting the wrong idea.

It is not the game's fault that perma-casuals who have never done anything more "hardcore endgame" than Nyzul Isle have never been exposed to competitive play in FFXI. The fact, and I mean absolute fact, remains that Abyssea has made the game significantly less hyper-competitive than it has ever been.

I fail to see how that's the case. Competing for claim (for example) on HNM was something that only a handful of the playerbase ever did. Having another group wait for you to finish with the potential there for them to grab your mob if you screw up is something that a large amount of people are only being exposed to for the first time.

Having them know about the claim system is one thing, and I applaud efforts to educate people. Having said that it seems pretty shortsighted to ignore the fact that the details of the claim system are being exposed to many more, and a far broader range of players than they ever have been. Expecting people to be fully educated on the nuances of it is a bit rich really. I'm not sure what i'm saying, maybe that a "suck less" attitude is pretty damn far from helping the problem. Though i'm sure some sections of the playerbase that push that garbage line would gladly keep others in the dark to their own advantage.

[Greatguardian]

I'm sure we'd be perfectly happy if the entire playerbase understood how the claim system worked, and how Haste worked, and how a variety of other things worked if only because it would mean that pickup groups would be less likely to suck and 45 minute 18-man Orthrus zombies would be less likely to happen in the middle of Ukon farming.

That aside, we can both agree that the range of players who are now playing Endgame content has increased. Personally, I love the fact that content is more openly accessible to the playerbase. However, I feel that it can only hold up as an excuse for willful player ignorance for so long.

FFXI resources are nowhere near difficult to come by. The Wiki has more than enough general information about these systems for the people who bother to take a few minutes and read them. Myself and others have been repeatedly attempting to educate the populace whenever a particular issue is brought up. BG's Random Question Thread still exists, and is heavily moderated to prevent trolling of people seeking real information (Eg: People aren't going to crap on you unless you crap on them first, anyone asking a polite question will get polite answers. Though, asking questions that require a lot of typing and work to answer without doing even basic research on one's own is rarely appreciated).

The fact of the matter is, many FFXI players simply refuse to educate themselves and instead opt to be willfully ignorant of how the game works. Unfortunately, a side effect of making content more accessible is that these people are thrown into the ring with people who do understand the basics of FFXI gameplay. Are they more likely to screw up and be taken advantage of? Most definitely. But that's not anyone else's fault, most especially not the fault of the game itself.

I don't expect everyone to know how pDif, dDex, WSC, fStr, and the like work and interact with one another. But I do expect them to know that Haste and X-hits are important. If the claim system were remotely complex, I would be more forgiving of not understanding that too. Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

The last person to act on a mob has claim, period. If that person disengages the mob, the mob goes white, period. If you're not on the hate list when a mob is in active combat (eg, not passive/idle), you require two consecutive actions to take claim, period. Those 3 simple rules are all anyone ever needs know about the claim system.

I absolutely cannot advocate changing the rules of the game just because some people choose not to learn the basics of gameplay.

[Capn]

I'm sure we'd be perfectly happy if the entire playerbase understood how the claim system worked, and how Haste worked, and how a variety of other things worked if only because it would mean that pickup groups would be less likely to suck and 45 minute 18-man Orthrus zombies would be less likely to happen in the middle of Ukon farming.

That aside, we can both agree that the range of players who are now playing Endgame content has increased. Personally, I love the fact that content is more openly accessible to the playerbase. However, I feel that it can only hold up as an excuse for willful player ignorance for so long.

FFXI resources are nowhere near difficult to come by. The Wiki has more than enough general information about these systems for the people who bother to take a few minutes and read them. Myself and others have been repeatedly attempting to educate the populace whenever a particular issue is brought up. BG's Random Question Thread still exists, and is heavily moderated to prevent trolling of people seeking real information (Eg: People aren't going to crap on you unless you crap on them first, anyone asking a polite question will get polite answers. Though, asking questions that require a lot of typing and work to answer without doing even basic research on one's own is rarely appreciated).

The fact of the matter is, many FFXI players simply refuse to educate themselves and instead opt to be willfully ignorant of how the game works. Unfortunately, a side effect of making content more accessible is that these people are thrown into the ring with people who do understand the basics of FFXI gameplay. Are they more likely to screw up and be taken advantage of? Most definitely. But that's not anyone else's fault, most especially not the fault of the game itself.

I don't expect everyone to know how pDif, dDex, WSC, fStr, and the like work and interact with one another. But I do expect them to know that Haste and X-hits are important. If the claim system were remotely complex, I would be more forgiving of not understanding that too. Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

The last person to act on a mob has claim, period. If that person disengages the mob, the mob goes white, period. If you're not on the hate list when a mob is in active combat (eg, not passive/idle), you require two consecutive actions to take claim, period. Those 3 simple rules are all anyone ever needs know about the claim system.

I absolutely cannot advocate changing the rules of the game just because some people choose not to learn the basics of gameplay.

This... a million times this...

I think the problem is, that back in the good old king days... people decided to tell kings to eff off since it was... well... it was kings... lol... now with Abyssea, people have that king-ish content more available, more people are doing it... and complaining about the system.

When you finish learning the system, only then can you complain...

[blowfin]

Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

Yet it keeps pissing people off and we're having the same thread pop up over and over again.

[Greatguardian]

Yet it keeps pissing people off and we're having the same thread pop up over and over again.

Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

Not my fault. Not the "vulture"'s fault. Certainly not the game's fault.

Their fault.

[Frost]

Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

Not my fault. Not the "vulture"'s fault. Certainly not the game's fault.

Their fault.

Except....

People know EXACTLY how it works, and that's why we're complaining. In some cases the current claim system is working contrary to the spirit of the game. Knowing that a DC'ing tank that's auto-attacking a mob and will unclaim the mob when he fully DC's and trying your hardest to pull hate off THE TANK in 30 seconds when it's been well established just so it doesn't happen are two different things. Just because YOU KNOW how it works doesn't mean you can stop it. And just because IT DOES HAPPEN, doesn't mean it's right.

I stand by my original statement this really only became a problem once SE started saying "Hey it went unclaimed, sucks to be you." Back in my HNM days that wouldn't fly... One could easily site racism because the GMs conveniently only popped up when a JP groups' Fafhogg was "stolen", but I'll lean on the side of coincidence... This IS a new thing, and it's been amplified by population density on both sides of the proverbial fence. There's more HNMs being fought and there's more people stealing pops since they believe SE is giving the "The Right" to take anything that goes unclaimed.

Had SE done anything in the past, fewer people would slide their moral flexibilities to the side of theft.

Which is ironic for SE considering you need to confirm 62,000 times to do anything in this game, and yet a monster can go unclaimed without any effort on the part of the group? Really?

[Malacite]

Civility? On the internet?

Surely you jest.

(would be nice though)

[blowfin]

Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

How are people supposed to know what to research before they are effected by it? They don't know how it works sure, but stating that people have refused to educate themselves on something that's never been an issue for them before is a bit silly.