and don't mess with call for help. with all the vultures I see around some of these NMs I fully intend going forward that if we are about to get our mob jacked to call for help just before I die... NO ONE who hasn't done the work will be allowed to profit off of my efforts, period!

not an issue when I solo. I don't take on an NM solo if I don't honestly believe I can take it, after reading up on it and checking my supplies, strength of the job against X, etc. In groups? There are simply more issues. If you need a !! for whatever you are after then you either need a buttload of different damage types to cover the possibilities OR a buttload of luck. You can limit possibilities SLIGHTLY on blue !! with the time of day and on red by fighting on watersday (unless someone finally found a red !! water trigger and I missed it?), but still your group may have to do alot of TP feed to get proc. And before some moron brings up discernment it doesn't proc 100% of the time, you may be having to whack/nuke a mob quite a bit to get your 1st hint, then you need to try the possibles; of course you can get lucky and proc on your 1st WS or cast before you even get a hint.

Unfortunately, all that whacking has the consequence of getting whacked back! And if it's the wrong TP move (like a mass charm) things can turn to a royal cluster____ in a hurry, especially if stun isn't a realistic option. That's one of the reasons low-man has gained in popularity, you can set things up so that hopefully only 1 person at a time is on the whack back list while trying to proc whatever !! you need (yes, I know, there's alot more reasons to low man, I did say "one"). It is a good reason to use bards on the yellow !! front. Even if threnody isn't the trigger you don't have to nuke the mob to get your hints, thus not pissing it off as much.

So, everyone can stand back out of TP range, hopefully healing whoever is taking their turn trying to !! proc and being ready to claim if he gets 1-shot or whatever, but if you aren't getting lucky on your hints it may take quite awhile this way.

Kiting is another issue. Actually had a vulture group running around randomly to obstruct my and the NMs paths, in what I believe was an attempt to make me lose claim due to distance, a real possibility with +movement; luckily, I'm smarter than that, used them as cover and kept slamming Dia and banish on the big fish (think we were going for a zone win for someone iirc). Since then I've used something similar, after the mass charm I use horde to sleep the charmed, then I use them as the cover to keep spamming hate manuvers; they may not like it, but it beats losing a mob we need.

Another thing we've started to deliberately do, alot of the boss NMs have TP moves that affect people outside the fighting group. If we see a group that looks like it's trying to vulture, we bring the NM to them in a variation of MPK. Even if they can Apoc zombie, the reflex is to scatter which can disrupt their chances at jacking the mob.

Unfortunately, SE doen't give alot of options to deal with vultures. That's why CFH-as is-is so important, it's the only way to ruin their jack attempts, but the sucky part is a. no point getting back up to fight it yourself, wasting your popset b. timing it so you don't have to forfeit your mob unless you KNOW you're about to die and noone in your group will get/keep hate (one of the many reasons my thief SATAs stuff onto AFK people), c. getting it off when you are at low HP and running if-like me-you're a lousy typist.