Claim System + Call for Help Code = Win

[Greatguardian]

I understand that you're on the side of the argument on the bias that "If it's in the game this way, then it's intentional" or "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But what is the practical application of having a monster go unclaimed when someone disconnects? Or when one person out of eighteen dies to an instant death move? Or a ranger Weaponskills and the mob is kited out of range? Etc.

When a group of people is in full control of a mob, and it goes unclaimed, that's an error.

This game is you against the environment the game was developed under the premise of teamwork; with the players on one side of the line, and the monster hoardes etc, on the other. At no point was the game ever intended to be players stealing from one another. Players aren't an "unfortunate environmental circumstance"... Defending a glitch as an intended dynamic when it goes contrary to the general theme and presentation of a game is faulty thinking.

It's like playing poker and somehow getting 2 Ace of Spades in your hand from a fresh deck. You don't just 'keep going' and revel in your luck... You stop, fix the error, and move on.

Having a monster go unclaimed when a person disconnects or dies is simply a side-effect of the much more fundamental rule of claiming. If you disengage the monster, for any reason, while you have sole claim over it, the monster goes white. If you die? You disengage. If you disconnect? You disengage. If you zone? You disengage. If you go out of range? You disengage.

Can it happen that the person with sole claim disconnects and a monster goes white? Yes. Should it ever? Absolutely not. Why? Because characters stay in the game with a red dot for a minimum of 30 seconds after a player has disconnected from the server. That 30 seconds should always be more than sufficient for any other member of the player's party to exert sole claim over the monster. If the disconnecting player is a DD that is attacking the mob (and continuing to automatically do so while disconnecting), move the NM away from said disconnecting DD so that they do not have the opportunity to reassert claim.

Can it happen when a single person in an alliance of 18 dies? Yes. Should it happen? Realistically, no, not unless said person was the only melee engaged on the NM (as auto-attacking a monster is the easiest/fastest way to constantly reassert sole claim). If they were, for some reason, the only melee engaged on the monster, there is still a window in which the 17 mages/others should be reasserting their claim before the monster goes white. This is not an instantaneous process. It is no more difficult than stunning a TP move (in fact, it is easier compared to most TP moves).

You assert that this is a glitch. I assert that everything is working 100% as intended. Alliances never, ever have claim over a monster. One person has claim over a monster at any given time, and the rest of his alliance is able to act on his monster because they are in a party with him. When the player who currently has claim disengages for any reason, claim is in flux for 1-2 seconds. When no one in the player's group acts, claim is forfeit. Once claim is forfeit, anyone in the player's group can reclaim with a single action. As an anti-steal measure, it requires 2 consecutive actions for any outside party to take claim (unless, of course, they were already on the hate list by curing the original party or somesuch).

There is no exploit happening. There is no glitch. The system is working 100% as intended. You forfeit claim when you disengage the monster you have claim over, and no one else on the hate list steps up to reclaim the forfeited claim.

[Akujima]

I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

Bold part: This is what you actually have to convince the naysayers about. But it will be damn difficult to do so, as their entire philosophy and way of life is based on that one statement. They are "good" only because other people "suck".

[Linh]

This would enable people to apoc zombie something forever

60 min rage timer.

Mob stays claimed until everyone in alliance is dead.

Unclaim button through entire alliance's menu (or leader only).

Go do something else if you're not part of the zombie group.

[blowfin]

And the current Claim system is there in order to keep morons from clogging up content.

That's bollocks, SE had no idea how popular Abyss was going to be.

It wasn't really that relevant before Abyss either, because the content simply wasn't there to clog. Problems with the claim system have really (and I mean really) been magnified by the game content we've got over the past year. In particular it's the fact that there's every type of player in Abyss from innocent care bear types to the cut-throat "stop having fun" people.

[Greatguardian]

That's bollocks, SE had no idea how popular Abyss was going to be.

It wasn't really that relevant before Abyss either, because the content simply wasn't there to clog. Problems with the claim system have really (and I mean really) been magnified by the game content we've got over the past year. In particular it's the fact that there's every type of player in Abyss from innocent care bear types to the cut-throat "stop having fun" people.

It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

It is not the game's fault that perma-casuals who have never done anything more "hardcore endgame" than Nyzul Isle have never been exposed to competitive play in FFXI. The fact, and I mean absolute fact, remains that Abyssea has made the game significantly less hyper-competitive than it has ever been.

If the FFXI Claim system survived 9 years of RotZ Kings, I promise you it is not suddenly glitching out in Abyssea. The fault is player error, period.

[blowfin]

It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

You're missing my point, it's become more of an issue because players of all types have been jammed together in the same content. No it wasn't as much of an issue before because HNM shells knew how to deal with it and it wasn't exploited on a "knowledgeable player vs. not so knowledgeable player" basis.

I'm not saying it's glitching, you're getting the wrong idea.

It is not the game's fault that perma-casuals who have never done anything more "hardcore endgame" than Nyzul Isle have never been exposed to competitive play in FFXI. The fact, and I mean absolute fact, remains that Abyssea has made the game significantly less hyper-competitive than it has ever been.

I fail to see how that's the case. Competing for claim (for example) on HNM was something that only a handful of the playerbase ever did. Having another group wait for you to finish with the potential there for them to grab your mob if you screw up is something that a large amount of people are only being exposed to for the first time.

Having them know about the claim system is one thing, and I applaud efforts to educate people. Having said that it seems pretty shortsighted to ignore the fact that the details of the claim system are being exposed to many more, and a far broader range of players than they ever have been. Expecting people to be fully educated on the nuances of it is a bit rich really. I'm not sure what i'm saying, maybe that a "suck less" attitude is pretty damn far from helping the problem. Though i'm sure some sections of the playerbase that push that garbage line would gladly keep others in the dark to their own advantage.

[Greatguardian]

I'm sure we'd be perfectly happy if the entire playerbase understood how the claim system worked, and how Haste worked, and how a variety of other things worked if only because it would mean that pickup groups would be less likely to suck and 45 minute 18-man Orthrus zombies would be less likely to happen in the middle of Ukon farming.

That aside, we can both agree that the range of players who are now playing Endgame content has increased. Personally, I love the fact that content is more openly accessible to the playerbase. However, I feel that it can only hold up as an excuse for willful player ignorance for so long.

FFXI resources are nowhere near difficult to come by. The Wiki has more than enough general information about these systems for the people who bother to take a few minutes and read them. Myself and others have been repeatedly attempting to educate the populace whenever a particular issue is brought up. BG's Random Question Thread still exists, and is heavily moderated to prevent trolling of people seeking real information (Eg: People aren't going to crap on you unless you crap on them first, anyone asking a polite question will get polite answers. Though, asking questions that require a lot of typing and work to answer without doing even basic research on one's own is rarely appreciated).

The fact of the matter is, many FFXI players simply refuse to educate themselves and instead opt to be willfully ignorant of how the game works. Unfortunately, a side effect of making content more accessible is that these people are thrown into the ring with people who do understand the basics of FFXI gameplay. Are they more likely to screw up and be taken advantage of? Most definitely. But that's not anyone else's fault, most especially not the fault of the game itself.

I don't expect everyone to know how pDif, dDex, WSC, fStr, and the like work and interact with one another. But I do expect them to know that Haste and X-hits are important. If the claim system were remotely complex, I would be more forgiving of not understanding that too. Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

The last person to act on a mob has claim, period. If that person disengages the mob, the mob goes white, period. If you're not on the hate list when a mob is in active combat (eg, not passive/idle), you require two consecutive actions to take claim, period. Those 3 simple rules are all anyone ever needs know about the claim system.

I absolutely cannot advocate changing the rules of the game just because some people choose not to learn the basics of gameplay.

[blowfin]

Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

Yet it keeps pissing people off and we're having the same thread pop up over and over again.

[Greatguardian]

Yet it keeps pissing people off and we're having the same thread pop up over and over again.

Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

Not my fault. Not the "vulture"'s fault. Certainly not the game's fault.

Their fault.

[Malacite]

Civility? On the internet?

Surely you jest.

(would be nice though)