FFXI Job Direction?? Dev Team, Please Respond.

[Seriha]

Inb4 someone tells me you can't fit enough gear into 80 slots to play melee RDM effectively again, despite already having shown a hypothetical 72-77 slot Inventory that covers everything you'd need out at any given time in the RDM subforum.

Because you can't, especially if you're dipping your hands into every cookie jar like a "good RDM" should be. Abyssea's somewhat negated the need for Convert and hMP sets, but once 91-99 content rolls around, it's a safe bet we'll be needing them cluttering our inventories again. And once you drop atmas, our melee drops like a rock and the glaring gap in equipment options for melee only becomes more obvious. Now, the inventory issue could be avoided if we could also equip things from our Sack and Satchel, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Thus, we go back to needing better hybrid gear that isn't a trashy compromise so that maybe, just maybe, a RDM could hold some echo drops, let seals fall to their inventory, and have room for other miscellaneous drops without playing the inventory game while magically doing everything everyone demands of them.

[Eeek]

Oh geez, where to start.

I pretty much had all there was to offer for the job, and in terms of the melee game, that hasn't changed all that much.

POIDH.

I'm also shocked that you're so blase about RDM's access to a WS as powerful as Chant du Cygne. Nothing's "changed all that much"? It's quite the opposite. Chant du Cygne is on par with the most powerful Empyrean weaponskills like Victory Smite and Blade: Hi (among others). A MNK or a NIN without access to their Empyrean weaponskill via a WoE Empyrean or Full Empyrean is simply subpar, and it's no different for RDMs serious about their DDing.

Also, new r/ex gear such as Zelus Tiara (+8% Haste) or Calmecac Trousers (+3% Haste/+2% DA/+2% TA ... and it's not a drop from Proto-Ultima or a mission reward from ASA) are not big improvements for serious melee RDMs?

nor will I sit here and demand someone have a level 90 Empyrean just to enter the conversation.

Sorry, but that's the way it's always been for the 'weaker' DDs. They simply have to work harder to compete, and it's not unreasonable for them to need a WoE or Full Empyrean to enter into the equation. DDs have never been on equal ground.

can't guarantee a RDM a spot in a party if a leader has a choice over a WHM or BLM.

My RDM, from 49-90+, always received fast invites for Abyssea exp. Leaders like me because I don't suck. I can heal better than most WHMs simply because I pay attention, and DDs love me because I keep every single DD in the ally hasted (it's just that important). I can nuke and crowd-control better than most BLMs simply because I pay attention, infuse the right Atma for the job (if I'm taking on that role), and I use proper Enfeebling and Nuking gear (it helps that I played BLM for years before leveling RDM).

And we all know the moment a RDM starts slacking at their "mage duties," you and everyone else so vehemently against the notion will throw some form of hissyfit by picking a fight, kicking them, and/or taking some kind of screenshot and running off to BG with it like it makes you a pro.

Don't want to be kicked from an Abyssea group? Suck Less, pay attention, and adjust your playstyle to address the needs of the party/alliance. I've never been bored enough to pull out a sword (even though it's fully capped and merited) because I can analyze a given situation and adjust my mage play to further complement and strengthen my party/alliance. Not everything demands the full healing or nuking power of WHM and BLM respectively, and RDM can adjust its approach to make kills faster and smoother. RDM is very powerful in the right hands.

Also, no one gets kicked from Abyssea exp groups these days, not that I've seen since no one seems to care, and I can't recall anyone being kicked from +1 seal NM groups. Even the people who really deserve it like full Aurore THFs, NINs, BLUs, DNCs, or BSTs (I kid you not, I've seen more than one full Aurore BST -.-).

stop talking like ... Abyssea is forever.

Actually, I'm on record as saying the exact opposite.

stop talking like every RDM is meleeing in full errant

But that's exactly what happens, although these days it's full Teal instead of full Errant. Or another smattering of decidedly non-melee gear.

On another note, you can't hide behind Guru status here. You can and will be called out when you're off-base, and if you're smart, you'll see it as an opportunity to reconsider your stances or learn something.

EDIT: Haha, I shouldn't have bothered to reply. Greatguardian nailed it again, and in far fewer words than I used. I tip my hat to you, good sir.

[Seriha]

POIDH.

For 75, TP set was basically Joyeuse/Justice/V.Stone/Walahra/PCC/Suppa/Brutal/Goliard/Dusk/ACC ring/Rajas/Cerb/Speed/ASA/Dusk. It's a haste heavy build with a spritz of ATK and ACC, both of which are still a RDM deficiency. Newer gear that's come since doesn't change much since you could cap Haste before, nor does it really change the ACC/ATK situation much. Some I've chucked. Some I've sold. Goading's more accessible than Speed despite lesser haste. Atheling is a legitimate upgrade. The C. trousers are debatable next to the ASA, as it translates to a big ACC gap where the minimally gained DA/TA could be lost in misses (nevermind Joyeuse still being one of our primary weapons diluting that perk). Beyond that, our TP sets are pretty much still the same with WS considering things like Anguinus over Warwolf. Once atma exit the picture (Hence my Abyssea comment), our good WS, which are mult-hitters, further exacerbate the juggling against STR/ACC/ATK and secondary mods thanks to lesser base skill and no native melee traits.

Not quite a thousand words, but in absence of a pic, you'll have to deal with it.

Sorry, but that's the way it's always been for the 'weaker' DDs. They simply have to work harder to compete, and it's not unreasonable for them to need a WoE or Full Empyrean to enter into the equation. DDs have never been on equal ground.

Pit Strong DD vs. Weak DD with equal effort put into both (nevermind the impossibility short of the exact same gear) and it's still no contest for the weaker. That's part of the problem. People flock to the stronger by default even if it means taking a gimp Strong against the pimpest of the Weak that would outdo them.

Meanwhile, your head's still up your butt if you think Empyreans or even WoE WS are standard.

My RDM, from 49-90+, always received fast invites for Abyssea exp.

So, by admitting you didn't level the job the old way, you've pretty much confessed no first-hand experience on the actual issues myself and others have brought up over the years. Hint: This isn't a problem that just materializes at 90.

Leaders like me because I don't suck.

Leaders on your server are clairvoyant? I must learn their secrets to constructing the perfect PUG and how seeing a name and possible search comment divulges one's full potential. Or maybe this is where you say you only EXP with your LS or a static. Most don't.

<lines of self-back patting>

POIDH time? Is this where I say I'd been my preferred LS RDM doing the back-line gig in various events prior to the cap increases where myself and others felt the brunt of pink magery with no hinted direction from SE other than a seeming sense of inaction? I mean, I guess we could look forward to the job map, but that's not really any different than the years we sat around before that hoping for fixes and changes.

On another note, you can't hide behind Guru status here. You can and will be called out when you're off-base, and if you're smart, you'll see it as an opportunity to reconsider your stances or learn something.

I must have been asleep or something when I conveyed that posting on Alla somehow makes me unconditionally right. Please link. This isn't the first time you've brought it up, let alone as yet another attempt at an insult toward myself or anyone who posts there. Yes, I've called you out on your own behavior here and its carry-over to BG, and it seems I've struck a nerve. When you can convey that precious knowledge of yours without running away for support or poisoning it with your sour attitude, maybe you might actually teach me something. I know your eyes are rolling right now, so prepare for it again, but I do learn things when there's actually something to be learned.

Otherwise, I'll just give you the advice that you're never going to change my mind about RDM in its current position, as we're intrinsically conflicting in both personalities and play styles. I, however, want options for the job. You? "Screw 'em! They're retards."

[Greatguardian]

Because you can't, especially if you're dipping your hands into every cookie jar like a "good RDM" should be. Abyssea's somewhat negated the need for Convert and hMP sets, but once 91-99 content rolls around, it's a safe bet we'll be needing them cluttering our inventories again. And once you drop atmas, our melee drops like a rock and the glaring gap in equipment options for melee only becomes more obvious. Now, the inventory issue could be avoided if we could also equip things from our Sack and Satchel, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Thus, we go back to needing better hybrid gear that isn't a trashy compromise so that maybe, just maybe, a RDM could hold some echo drops, let seals fall to their inventory, and have room for other miscellaneous drops without playing the inventory game while magically doing everything everyone demands of them.

As I recall, your primary complaint with my inventory was the lack of Dark Magic Skill gear. Frankly, I was still being very generous with that set. An ideal RDM isn't ever, ever going to keep their full Nuke sets and staves out while they have their TP/WS sets and Swords out. Why? Because we have a Mog Sack and a Mog Satchel for those things.

RDM changes roles in the field. Even with only 80 active inventory, you have plenty of room for things that you are going to need available to you *At any one point in time*. If the situation changes and you need to swap to staves and grab your Nuke sets? Chuck TP/WS/Swords into your Sack and grab Nuke/Staves/etc out of it. It takes 30 seconds.

Here's the thing: Warrior is only good at one thing. Being a Warrior, aka Hitting stuff. Black mage is only good at one thing. Being a Black Mage, aka nuking shit. Red Mage is good at everything. Can you reasonably expect Red Mage to be better at blowing things up than Black Mage? No, but it is (was). Sorry, BLMs. Prior to Elemental Celerity and the crapload of Nuking buffs BLM has received post-Scars of Abyssea, RDM was clearly the superior nuking choice.

Can you reasonably expect a Red Mage to ever be able to Melee DD as effectively as a MNK, a NIN, a WAR, or a THF? No. Never. Not in a million years. Why? What can that MNK, or NIN, or WAR do aside from DD effectively and tank? Can they Nuke? Can they heal? No. These are specialized jobs, who excel at their chosen function. Red Mage is not a specialized job concept. It is an amalgam of different specializations that it can swap between in the field.

No matter what, all jobs and roles in FFXI are always best played via specialization. Specialized DDs are the strongest DDs. Specialized Healers are the strongest healers. Specialized Buffers are the strongest Buffers.

Red Mage is not a job designed to be able to do everything at the same time. Red Mage is a job that is designed to be able to change its specialization, and occasionally utilize multiple, mutually appreciative, simultaneous specializations, without changing jobs.

Can you heal, buff, Dia, and DD effectively at the same time? Hell, I hope you can, easily. Healing, Buffing, and the Dia spell are acceptably proficient without the use of the Main/Sub slot.

Can you heal, buff, Nuke, and DD effectively at the same time? No. Why? Nuking and DD'ing conflict. You cannot use staves while DD'ing, and you cannot nuke effectively in a sword.

What does this mean? If you're doing something which obviously conflicts with another potential specialization, store the gear for said specialization in your sack/satchel. If you suddenly need to disengage and start nuking/kiting, toss your DD gear into your satchel and grab your Nuking gear out of it. I'm sure you can handle autorunning for 30-60 seconds while you spam enter and scroll down, right?

I really don't want to see the "I want Hybrid Gear that's better than all the specialized gear combined" argument brought up again, but it's not like its gained any more merit since the last ten times it's been thrown out. Keeping conflicting sets out at the same time is stupid. There are some sets that should never, ever be stored, like PDT, MDT, and Refresh/Idle. But really, why the heck would I need instant access to my HMP set if I'm in Abyssea? Or my Bio set if I'm using Dia on everything? Work smarter, not harder.

[Duelle]

I'll bet an AH RDM can cure better than an AH PLD. Ugh. I'm so frustrated. PLD was billed as a Swordsman with Healing magic, but no one lets me main heal in parties. Why does everyone expect PLD to be on the front line? What's the point of even giving them access to Apollo's Staff if they're not going to Cure? It's downright insulting, SE!

Bad argument to start. Nice try but PLD has been one of the few jobs that actually lives up to concept and how it was sold. The knight in shining armor that uses a sword and shield and protects his allies. Hell, even the weak white magic is up to par with what you expect out of a Final Fantasy paladin.

Protip: Red Mage is easily one of the single most powerful stand-alone jobs in the entire game. Players who are good enough to play it effectively while melee'ing appropriately already do so and no one with a brain complains.

Counterpoint: The job is currently not streamlined and suffers in actual party content because of it. Keep in mind that this game as a whole is built around partying, which already proves the job fails when its components are not all relevant in the very thing the game was designed around. It's sad that some people here cannot wrap their brains around the idea of a hybrid job being capable of choosing their role and being beneficial to their LS/groups instead of having to be pigeonholed into one role alone.

Here's the thing, though. Good RDMs also know when to chuck the sword and throw on the staff. There is no "Always Wearing A Sword" approach to a job like RDM that will ever be successful. Staves enhance spells. Swords enhance frontline damage. When your duties are limited to Restorative/Buff duties, you aren't losing much by equipping a sword (CdC will outweigh the benefit you get from Cure Potency+, and you're able to use RR/Apoc/MM without much of a loss). When your duties include Enfeebles on resistant NMs, any sort of Nukes, Movement/Kiting, or the versatility granted by being able to change your Main/Sub slots, you wear a bloody staff/wand/whatnot and use Mage atmas.

I felt you were going to play this card, but fine. Gameplay currently favors the backline caster with buffs much more than any other aspect of the job itself. Nukes didn't even matter until Abyssea, Atma and all that gear that was covered in +MAB entered the picture. Furthermore, front lining does not and should not include buff duties, as you already lose valuable melee time with what we have to cast on ourselves. Occasional utility is fine because you can pitch in during emergencies (much like the class I mentioned in my last post can when front-lining), but that is not part of what you should be doing in the front lines.

RDM is one of the most inventory and macro-heavy jobs in the game to do well. But I tell you what, the fact that not everyone with level 90, 10,000 gil and a pulse can a be sooper dooper awesome magic swordsman is not a problem with the Red Mage job. It is a problem with shitty players who only have level 90, 10,000 gil, and a pulse.

Right, the job is an exclusive club. Screw the people that liked the job from previous games, only the elite get to play Red Mage! /sarcasm

The job used to fill a niche as being able to cover heals in an age where White Mage was the only real healer and Summoner could pseudo cover until you got to mobs that actually hit hard. It was in high demand not because of versatility or anything else, but because it could cure, haste and refresh, which were the three things parties cared about during the leveling process alone. By the time you hit the level cap everyone else is conditioned to expect that from a RDM to let the "real" melee and "real" nukers do their thing. Even with all the whining about RDM not being enough of a healer, I still got dragged along to cover heals.

Sure, we have Avesta and the clowns that immitated him ruining things for the rest of us who don't give two damns about soloing HNMs and gods (and in my case wish it had been nerfed to hell for the sake of class balance), but what the melee camp wants is simply the option to open up. As mentioned before, that is currently not the case, and the developers have basically been choosing random things to give our class instead of saying "well, this is what we're gonna do with you guys". Hopefully the upcoming posts on class direction will shed some light and will put the questions and issues to rest. If the answers are as definite as I hope they are, then I'll be able to drop the matter and move on.

[Karbuncle]

Bad argument to start. Nice try but PLD has been one of the few jobs that actually lives up to concept and how it was sold. The knight in shining armor that uses a sword and shield and protects his allies. Hell, even the weak white magic is up to par with what you expect out of a Final Fantasy paladin.

I'm rather positive he was being sarcastic >.>

[Ravenmore]

When were you playing that you would take a SNM main healing over rdm. Really rdm has been a healer in exp ever since the player base came around to seeing how retarded it was to exp on IT++ making 2 healers pointless. Endgame they went to the thier main role of debuffs, back heals, party buffs. Rdm is not the olny job that is really differnet then other games. Everytime some one spouts off that crap I really wish they didn't give 11 the Final Fatasy name

[Supersun]

Also, new r/ex gear such as Zelus Tiara (+8% Haste) or Calmecac Trousers (+3% Haste/+2% DA/+2% TA ... and it's not a drop from Proto-Ultima or a mission reward from ASA) are not big improvements for serious melee RDMs?

Compare a 75 DD to a 90 DD.

Now compare a 75 Melee Rdm to a 90 Melee Rdm

So yeah while Rdm melee gear might have improved I can safely say that pretty much every other job except Blm, Sch, and Smn has received more powerful melee gear then Rdm.

So excuse me for not being exactly enthusiastic when every other job found bill gates credit card in their christmas stockings. Sure we got something too, but finding coal in out stocking compared to everyone else is hardly a buff.

And really, when reading your post of what you do in an average party I couldn't find one thing that a Blm/Whm couldn't do nearly as well if not better then Rdm in those situations.

The only advantage Rdm would have over Sch/Whm and Blm/Whm for what you are doing is MP management and there are bigger issues in your party if you are running out of MP.

[Damane]

Well, for starters they could maybe allow Avatar's favor to work on the freaking avatars themselves and not just the PT. Removing the 15% damage penalty would be nice too, since they're gimp enough as it is (I still think that was an unnecessary and back-handed drawback they put into that ability)

And BPs DO suck for damage, even the 70's unless you're inside abyssea and even then it's irrelevant - The whole big draw to them prior was because you could deal 1k+ damage to things like Kirin and not eat dirt because of it. Well, Abyssea kinda throws the whole notion of consequences out the window for the most part. Between Infinite-MP WHM's with Cure 6 and obscenely powerful weaponskills like Ukon's Fury, there's not much point to having a SMN around for damage.

And lord knows as others have pointed out, it's not good for much else anymore. Just about every buff a SMN can provide, other jobs can as well and in some cases they do it better. The only real reason to have a SMN around right now is for Voidwatch, and even that is totally random as it gives you absolutely no clue what pacts to use, and with a 1 minute timer it can get rather hectic.


A good start for fixing SMN would be something that players have been asking for since the game came first came out, which is individual timers for each blood pact.

Go try Voidwatch. You will want SMN or RNGs as the prime Damage tools on thosw fight (especially on higher Tiers).

Besides Avatar's Favor has some really nice buffs for melees in store outside of abyssea, and SMN can easy reach teh 50% cure potency cap makeing them also an excellent healer outside of abyssea, playing a hybrid healer/buff role in a melee pt is not farfetched and could work, if that damn Avatar favor would have a great reach effect then 10' ¬.¬

[Ravenmore]

Only in abyssea does rdm lose out to other jobs just subing whm. Outside of abyssea rdm and whm are still the best healers to have in your tank party. Cure 6 cost to much MP when outside of abyssea you tank should never need that kind of single cure power though out the fight. Also with out a rdm and refresh 2 good luck with mp.

Void walker is nice content that is challenging but with out rewards for all jobs people won't do it. Why should a whm/rdm/sch/healer do content that offers nothing they can't get else were with far less effort. Abyssea showed the player base a event were all jobs can get great gear not only melee or only mages.