BLM/SMN Staff Weapon Skills limited without proper subs

[Greatguardian]

WHM, for some reason, was given an entire subsection of EX clubs too (Maul class).

PLD has an A- club skill, but they are limited to Mace class weapons and the occasional Rod class weapon.

They gave WHM a stronger melee ability than RDM, making it the strongest physical DD among all of the pure mages. It's really more of an exception rather than the rule. It may have had something to do with the fact that WHM is the only pure mage that lacks potent offensive spells. RDM can nuke things. BLM can nuke things. SMN can nuke things. SCH can nuke things. WHM can't. WHM is a purely defensive caster, so it's plausible that they were given a reasonable Melee option as a last resort ability to deal damage if absolutely necessary.

[Malamasala]

I think some of you have to go back to math class. Claiming SMN doesn't need staff WSes because it CAN nuke, without taking into consideration that between each nuke there is a downtime of 45 seconds where your only possible choices are melee or rest, before you start looking at sub jobs.

Few people take a second look at SMN and notice that it is built more like a melee than BLU. BLU has enough different spells to simply go stand at the backline and cast cures and cannons and spits and what have you for ranged attacks.

The only reason BLUs are even up front meleeing is that SE for unknown reasons decided to give them better armor selection. Back in the past they even had better than PUP, but due to PUP complaints SE fixed this. Why SE doesn't listen to SMNs and fix those armors as well is beyond me. I guess with the lack of lolPUP we need lolSMN on our servers.

Anyone who disagree have never given the job a second thought and just taken it all at face value.

[Greatguardian]

There is absolutely no point arguing with someone who firmly believes that Haste>25% is broken, but I find it hilarious that the same person is telling others to go take a math class.

I never said a darn thing about what SMN "needs" or does not "need". The fact of the matter is that they have other offensive options. Their avatar can melee between those 45 second BPs, and is/was expected to when the job was conceptualized and combat skills were set. Summoner is a mage who has extra-planar creatures do the fighting for them. Can they melee? Sure. Is it understandable why the choice was made not to give them EX Staff WS? Definitely.

Whether I agree with that choice or not is irrelevant. I'm simply saying that it can make sense.

[Dallas]

Myrkr beats the living snot out of all the other WSs, /WHM or otherwise. That said, I still think mages should get these WS. SMN in particular is the job that can only benefit from Primeval Brew by equipping a subjob.

[Karbuncle]

WHM, for some reason, was given an entire subsection of EX clubs too (Maul class).

PLD has an A- club skill, but they are limited to Mace class weapons and the occasional Rod class weapon.

They gave WHM a stronger melee ability than RDM, making it the strongest physical DD among all of the pure mages. It's really more of an exception rather than the rule. It may have had something to do with the fact that WHM is the only pure mage that lacks potent offensive spells. RDM can nuke things. BLM can nuke things. SMN can nuke things. SCH can nuke things. WHM can't. WHM is a purely defensive caster, so it's plausible that they were given a reasonable Melee option as a last resort ability to deal damage if absolutely necessary.

While there may be alternative reasons, I just feel the argument "They're not melee" didn't hold water because of WHM and its Club skills/etc. Thats all GG =.=a

Regardless, Earth Crusher and Sunburst are more or less completely worthless outside of Red Triggers so meh.

Though, As with the above statement, I can't fathom why people care so much outside of Abyssea triggers...

So i could live without getting them.

[Malamasala]

There is absolutely no point arguing with someone who firmly believes that Haste>25% is broken, but I find it hilarious that the same person is telling others to go take a math class.

It is broken if there is no equal options for other damage dealers. Why should a DD be able to WS every 30 seconds, but a SMN not able to BP every 30 seconds? If SE set BP timer cap at -15, it should mean that no melee should ever reach 100% TP before 45 seconds have passed. If you can cut off more than 15 seconds on your TP gain speed, it is broken or unbalanced.

I don't ask for more than fair treatment. No requests to be the ultimate job. Just a job on par with every other job. (And obviously not tanking like a NIN, DDing like a WAR, nuking like a BLM, and buffing like a BRD)

Whether I agree with that choice or not is irrelevant. I'm simply saying that it can make sense.

Most things makes sense.
Give SMN thunder III. Well, that makes sense. Rydia had some low level BLM spells, similar to a DRK.
Give SMN cure V. Well, Dagger had high level cures to go with the summons.

Other things make less sense.
Give H2H to SMN. Well... isn't staff more of a mage job weapon? I know FF5 could have you H2H as SMN/MNK combo but still...
Give Sentinel to SMN. Damage negation is wonderful for mage... but it gives hate spike too, doesn't it? Wouldn't it be counter intuitive?

In this case we are saying the job with relic, mythic and empyrean staffs, should have access to all WSes for staff. It seems VERY reasonable.

Myrkr beats the living snot out of all the other WSs, /WHM or otherwise.

Myrkr is a fine WS, it is just that the weapons it comes on are pointless. Ideal weapons for Myrkr are things like OA2-4 staff, TP bonus, -Perpetuation, or nirvana with the +10 or if it was +30 accuracy bonus. But the empy and fake empy both only have high DMG and no helpful TP-ing stats.

I'd be more interested in getting an empy for Spirit Taker, due to having high DMG so I can get high MP returns and good WS damage. It is just backwards. Not to mention entirely ironic since I used to post that SE doesn't understand that unless the WS gives MP, it is a useless WS for mages... so we got one that does no damage and only gives MP, on a DD staff...

It just keeps amaze me that SE has had 10 years to work on SMN and still have gotten 95% of all related updates wrong.

Like why are there still perpetuation in this game? I can get it to zero, so it is not for balance issues. Only reason I can think of is "So SMNs have some endgame gear to hunt down". Why not give us HP slip too, and give us regen armors? Brilliant endgame armor design in the making.

[noodles355]

Red Mage can equip Relic, Mythic and Empyrean swords, but it doesnt natively get Red Lotus Blade or Seraph Blade. More importantly it doesnt get Vorpal Blade.

[Malamasala]

Well, it is all kind of ironic. Like you could once again pull the argument that RDMs can nuke, so they didn't get EX weaponskills. But if you actually step back in time, Holy was a great nuke that WHMs had while having EX weaponskills, but SE nerfed that. Perhaps because "WHM has EX weaponskills, they shouldn't have nukes"? Though I'm more inclined to think they nerfed holy because BLMs complained and it didn't make sense to have PLDs dealing massive magic damage.

Which again bring me to a great point. BLMs complaining about nuking WHMs -> Nerf. SMNs complaining about lack of WSes -> nothing. Because you can't complain yourself to an update, only to someone elses nerf.

[rog]

This doesn't really work against BLM, as /WHM is workable

I seriously hope you do not play blm.

[Harukusan]

I don't think it would be unbalanced to give these WS to their respective jobs natively. The point I'm trying to make is that it would just make sense to give BLM/SMN/SCH more native staff WS (and maybe club, excluding Hexa. They are generally magey type weapons). And of course to give RDM their respective sword WS. This would be far from game breaking as simply using the right sub job would provide access to these. It's just ironic that you HAVE to use certain sub jobs in order to use these skills.