WAR Job Ability 90+: "Weapon Mastery"

[Arcon]

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I had use for all of my weapons far before Abyssea ever came along Arcon >< It's the players that never found use for these weapons before Abyssea that believe this post is geared towards Abyssea. Yes triggering would be possible in Abyssea, but that's a side benefit at best from what my suggestion is aiming for.

It's a side effect from your point of you, but the raison d'etre from everyone else's point of view. There were WS I used other than GA. But most of the good non-axe WS are already available to WAR as it is now, especially considering the new WS: Vorpal Blade, Penta Thrust, Herculean Slash, Spiral Hell, Black Halo, Retribution. The only weapon type missing from that list is Hand-to-Hand (and obviously Katana and Great Katana, which aren't covered by your idea anyway). But you're not asking for any "useful" WS, you're asking for WS that have no merit in using other than to stagger mobs.

Again, if a WAR doesn't know how to push the weapon skills they have already on those weapons, I don't expect them to even understand the point of getting more.

They do know how, but they see no point in it, because they simple aren't as useful as they WS they have. Name one WS a WAR needs to be more efficient, in any conceivable way (not just damage), apart from staggering.

My definition for effective ws damage (outside of Abyssea) is 1.5k+ damage. I can achieve this kinda damage on all the melee weapons a WAR can wield, so their "effective" for me. Again, I find enjoyment out of playing with different weapons, and pushing the limits of what can be done through the versatility of WAR.

And again, the WS you're suggesting we get access to don't fall within any margin of "effective". The only exceptions would be Dragon Kick, Asuran Fists, Black Halo, Guillotine and maybe Spinning Slash. For all of those weapons (except Hand-to-Hand) WAR already has access to good WS. And notice that 4/5 of those are also stagger WS.

Let me tailor your interpretation of what I'm trying to reason with you about:

"Your relentless reasoning: "We already have so much,(And as the level cap rises towards 99, we're only going to become more adept at what we do through higher combat skills, new JA's, new JT's, and newer/more powerful gear and weapon choices) so it only makes sense to let us have more!"

I'm not reasoning anything that isn't already going to take place in terms of WAR's imminent evolution as we approach 99. I'm simply suggesting what I believe would be a nice addition to WAR's future abilities.

To me that just sounded like this:
"We already have so much, and we'll get even more in the next updates, so it only makes sense to let us have more still!"

And I can assure you that's what it sounds like to most people (because that's what you said). You really don't see why people object to that? You say you want diversity, but the game already has diversity. The same argument you bring about "wanting to experience other things than a Great Axe" other people say to you about experiencing other jobs. Other weapon skills are simply available to other jobs. That's like a WHM wanting to be able to cast every white magic spell in the game, because it's just their thing, or a PLD wanting to be able to have every defensive measure in the game, because they're the iconic tanks. Some things are just not meant for certain jobs, despite how it may look like. If you want to experience other weapons, you already have the means to do it. It sounds like you just want it without having to do the work for it (i.e. level the required job).

I'm not too much concerned with folks that have WAR envy as they'll continue to be mad if we get ANYTHING in future updates lol.

Their envy is well-placed imo. WAR was already a very strong DD, arguably the strongest (bar relic SAM), yet SE pushed it a lot further. Balance was one of the aspects of the game that I always appreciated. The fact that a good WAR could out-damage any other average job. And the fact that a DNC could do the same. This is not really possible anymore, even great DNC have a very hard time just keeping up with an average WAR. Sure, they can do other things instead, but same goes for other jobs. That's not how it should be imo.

[Ryozen]

You forgot to /stagger in your last post.

[kingfury]

You forgot to /stagger in your last post.

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lol /cues joke drumroll ^^

[Minsc]

Just do us all a favor and admit you want this for procs and procs only. You go on and on about it being because you want to have the choice, but any WAR with a brain would never choose scythe over GA or polearm over GA unless they're trying to proc something. You said something to the effect of, "Why ride a bike if you can drive a car?" By your logic, if there is a BLM and WHM in your PT, you ask for a Tele-Mea, get a chocobo and OP home (even though a Warp II would clearly be faster), just because you have that choice. Better yet, you must walk to Tele-Mea because you have that choice. However, I doubt you do all of that just like I doubt that you want this ability for anything other than procing.

"A THF is a DD, and pretty good one at that, but does that mean they should envy a WAR because of their design to hit hard? Nah. They have a great roll and they do it well. What about a SAM or a DRG or a DRK? Yes, they're DD's, but that doesn't mean they were designed to be the hardest hitting DD's in the game."

Let's not forget, WAR was originally designed to tank. SAM, DRG and DRK were originally designed to be DDs.

You also say, "The good thing about WAR is that I don't have to level another job to be efficient at another weapon since that's apart of our core job design." So by that logic, why should anyone level any other DD job if WAR has it all? Hell, why stop there? Why don't we give WAR a Jump and Cover and Magic and make Mighty Strikes a 1 minute recast and give them a new 2hr called "God Mode" where you essentially get the effects of a brew for 119 minutes? I enjoy playing WAR just as much as anyone, but I also see the sense in at least trying to keep things as balanced as possible. Your idea sucks, friend.

[Leonlionheart]

You can suggest it all you want, but it's a horrid idea.

Not trying to discourage you from making new ideas, but get over this one.

This will be about as useful as footwork.

[Ryozen]

How do you figure that Relic SAM out-DDs Empyrean WAR?

[Arcon]

How do you figure that Relic SAM out-DDs Empyrean WAR?

I was talking about how WAR was already an outstanding DD pre-Abyssea (from my experience the best, bar relic SAM), and instead of balancing things out, SE pushed WAR even further ahead (with or without Ukonvasara).

[Leonlionheart]

Arcon, there's no logical way to tell kingfury off but for him to stop trolling. He's been regurgitating the same reasoning up for the last few pages now.

Someone states that WAR uses GA because it's the best, and using something else would just be less efficient.

Then he says that WAR should try other things.

Then someone says that WAR uses GA because it's the best, not because it's all they have.

But WAR should try other things.

But GA is the best, no way around it.

But WAR should try other things.

...

At this point he's just trolling.

[kingfury]

@ Leonlionheart:

Uh, no, responding to folks that ask the same questions over and over again isn't trolling. Again, I've already stated that this has never been a question of which weapon is best to DD with (a Great Axe) so there's no need to try and make it sound like my logic is off. Pay attention to my post before you try calling others trolls. Actually READ what I post perhaps, so you don't make a troll out of yourself.

"Variety, Choice, and the fun of mastering multiple weapons. ^^

Can't say "they'll never be as good" since that's a factor that's based on the expertise of the player wielding the weapon and the weapons/gear/JA's/JT's/and such that are being planned for us for future updates.

I understand your stance Leon, and you don't have to worry that I'm trying to say GA isn't the #1 choice for DD'ing on WAR because it really is. There's no argument there. My point, even from the OP is that WAR does truly excel at using these other weapons enough so to be considered worthy contenders as DD'ing choices along side GA."

[Arcon]

This line,
• "But you're not asking for any "useful" WS, you're asking for WS that have no merit in using other than to stagger mobs."

And this statement,
• "They do know how, but they see no point in it, because they simple aren't as useful as they WS they have. Name one WS a WAR needs to be more efficient, in any conceivable way (not just damage), apart from staggering."

are battling each other.

No? I don't see how that's even remotely a contradiction, but instead just reinforcing the same point, that you only want weak new WS, because we already have many strong WS (as you pointed out yourself). If you're looking for a contradiction, here's one:

Can't say "[other weapons will] never be as good"

you don't have to worry that I'm trying to say GA isn't the #1 choice for DD'ing on WAR because it really is. There's no argument there.

Other weapons will never be as good. They might occasionally be useful, they might even still be able to DD competitively (which is what, I'm guessing, you meant), but they will never be as good. And people don't see a reason to settle for second best. People don't even play with a normal axe anymore, because it can't measure up. So why settle for something less than ideal? Do you have that much fun playing with other weapons for the sake of using other weapons? Not gaining anything useful by it? If you do, I don't blame you. But you're the only one I know.

The funny thing is, that you already can play with all other weapons, and you already have great weapon skills for these weapons (which you personally bragged about). So why could you possibly wanna be able to use other weapon skills? Because you just always wanted to use Energy Drain on your WAR?

Trust me, a VERY high percentage of WARs DO NOT even equip other weapons enough to know how to get the most out of them.

I'll tell them how: same way as with every other WS.

Half of the folks that are spitting flame at my suggestion don't even know their potential, so it's easier to put something down that you don't understand/don't want to understand. They REALLY DON'T know how Arcon, because if they did they would see the validity in my suggestion which opens the door for more options.

They do, they just don't agree with you. I know other WS can be "good", but not as good as a great axe. And since they don't have any other interesting properties, I don't see why you would use them. The only reason would be, to experience new things, for the role-play value. And that is precisely why the job system exists. Why some jobs can do things other jobs can't.

Now you argue, that WAR is meant to be a master of all weapons (which is false), and therefore should have access to more weapon skills. WAR, in fact, is "experienced" at many weapons. They are specifically not meant to be master of all. That's the reason why they lack some WS with every weapon except for the axes. Based on the fact that they're experienced at other weapons is precisely the reason why they're so good with them already. But you seem to be hellbent on taking it beyond their outline and making them absolutely proficient with each.

It just makes no sense to me that we have such high combat ratings with these weapons and not the WS's to match.

This is also part of your contradiction. Saying we have so many great WS and can break 5k easily, then say we don't have the weapon skills to match those weapons.

If Abyssea had never been released, I would still have suggested this to the Devs, so for the last time ABYSSEA TRIGGERING IS NOT WHY I'M PROPOSING THIS

It doesn't matter why you suggested it, we just said that's the only reason why people would be using it. If it's not possible to stagger mobs with those, people won't use them at all and the JA will be useless again.

This line and following statements,
• "To me that just sounded like this:
"We already have so much, and we'll get even more in the next updates, so it only makes sense to let us have more still!"

Uhh... correct. Sounds a bit Mojo Jojo'ish when you put it like that (redundant), but yeah, that's pretty much the logic.

And that's why people object. Apart from the fact that it would upset the game balance (in a role-playing way) and that it's not useful (in a gameplay-way), it's the logic with which you defend it. No one agrees with that point of view. Here you say:

Now, you and others are saying my suggestion of trying to bolster that job design is off base? Why? No other job can do what we can do with weapons is my point, so why not reward that?

Why do you wanna reward a job description? WAR can use plenty of great WS already (as you admitted), isn't that the reward? And you think it's not, while other people say it is.