Creating "Job Abilities" for Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Blocking

[Zyeriis]

Bullwhip is only lowering your resist rate. Also Theres not a lot of NMs where you can regularly resist nukes that are powerful enough you should be worried about.

Then theres Shell V

Any NM thats powerful enough you need to worry about their nukes, You aren't resisting anyway. Even with bar-spells most of them will overwhelm you. Bullwhip is your best bet, Unless you're soloing.

Situation dependent. Like I said, don't use it for everything.

[HFX7686]

In favour of which idea? Making throwing viable and not utterly useless? All that math showed was how it was useless. You expect me to create mathematic formulas to replace the bad formulas that are already in place to make my argument? As I haven't seen the math that says that a different mathematical formula that does not currently exist (thus the problem) that can make throwing at least semi-useful (whether this is damage or otherwise to which we are referring) then, no.

Until you can back up the "anti-throwing because I think throwing is stupid" "argument" with an actual reason aside from "it's too late" (non-mathematical) or "if they haven't done it yet so they won't" (non-mathematical unless you count that as probability, in which case, you can't deny that it is in fact possible, because there is no probability without possibility) or "i don't want this, I want something else because my views on what is useful are steeply based in the current mechanics and thus are the only way things can be" (non-mathematical), then, again, no, you will not receive mathematical formulas that do not currently exist within the game to counter that. Why? This has nothing to do with the very mathematical equations that were brought up, aside from them being the problem. Closed mindedness, so far steeped in the present that it can not see the alternative, is getting annoying but, please, continue.

So, disregarding the "beneficial", can you at least come up with a "doable"? Something that can be coded as to not break the game?

[kingfury]

In regard to the derailment: This topic is about Job Abilities to augment and enhance Defensive Abilities and all Throwing for all jobs that have throwing ability, NOT JUST NINJA and NOT THROWING WEAPONSKILLS. All jobs with Throwing Ability could very well make use of certain additions. These utility abilities could offer them new options to deal with situations, specifically when solo or in low-man groups.

~*~

A "Final" thought on the Ninja subject: Throwing is clearly useful at some point in their careers... if the Job Abilities I presented are given to them early on, while throwing is admittedly useful... these abilities would be admittedly useful. Shuriken do NOT always have to be stronger than melee to be useful (congratulations, one area was found where shuriken cannot realistically compare favorably to melee: after haste drives melee damage insane); there are cases where Ninjas need to use damage other than melee... like when an enemy has crippling non-dispellable spikes and they can't safely engage. And that's just one situation, where yes, these ideas WOULD be useful for Ninjas, even after haste becomes such an important factor.

Now, let's leave the Ninja concerns about throwing back in the "A Ninja without throwing..." thread, and leave this one alone, because they are not the same subject.

~*~

Back on topic:
What are some "Generic" Defensive or Throwing Job Abilities that could be useful to all jobs with those combat skills?

If you can't think of anything on this topic, this really isn't the topic to be posting in. (I've already apologized for my derailment into job specific abilities)

I personally can't think of any new "generic" abilities at this point.

Maybe move "Defender" from Warrior to "generic", since in past FF games, the "Defend" command was available from everyone's command list. In this case, I'd change Defender to also have the effect of raising all defensive abilities' activation rates and grant physical damage reduction rather than the useless bonus to "defense".

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Wow >< You took the words out of my mouth ^^

I had to skim through like 3-4 pages of this stuff just to find a clear voice of reason lol. Yet, I don't think people even saw/read your post >< lol. I fear my post won't even dent the persistent iron will to argue that has found it's way in, ><; but I'll try.

My suggestion for "Enhancing Abilities" is just a spring board foundation for adding new life and usefulness to Shield, Parrying, Throwing and Blocking skills. Think of these abilities as starter points for creating new and unique ways to possibly enhance gameplay for numbers of Jobs in FFXI, not just a call for trying to change game code/mechanics. Similar to how Atmas from Abyssea function, try to imagine these abilities as though they were Atmas that enhance Throwing, Blocking, Parrying, and Shield skills/performance you could turn on at will for a time. Then try to imagine what kind of enhancements would make them worthwhile to use.

Damage is only one piece of the possible endless puzzle of enhancements that could be devised for bolstering these skills. "Usefulness" from weapons/abilities/gear/items in this game does not only find their definitive qualities in how much damage can be created from using them. Think outside of that logic for a second, and consider other types of usefulness for the skills in question.

And for those that have repeated the similarities of some of these enhancements, yes, I realize that the spell Reprisal has similar qualities, but the point from the OP is to make them available to other jobs via skill level. PLDs would simply benefit from from the two abilities I suggested in that they would have an added boost to what Reprisal can do. Again, it's no different than a PLD being able to cast Flash on a target as well as use Flash Nova with a club to do the same thing. Similarly, a WAR having Berserk to enhance attack as well as Warcry. Having multiple ways to accomplish a similar/same effect is nothing new to the mix of FFXI.

The biggest point here, again, is that other jobs with the appropriate skill levels would now have new life and functionality when using a shield vs the current mundane and vary unrewarding functionality present today. Equip, and hope it procs. This can be easily changed without recoding the current systems simply by adding enhancements that bring these skills to life. I've only suggested 3 for Throwing and Shield, that's not to say with more planning and creativity even more diverse and unique abilities can't be added to the list.

No where does the OP ask for WS's, only ways to enhancements and bolster these skills.

[kingfury]

Btw, your "Shield retaliation" is basically Reprisal.

As far as the reflecting the sun one. Wouldn't that not work in dungeons or during weather?

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Yep, just posted about the similarities, and it's for a purpose. ^^

Yep, I see no reason not to add some realism into the mix since we have dozens of pieces of gear that's governed by day/night/weather conditions. I added "Effective with shields that contain metal", as a means of making some sense, so paying attention to where/when you use this ability should also play into the strategy of using it effectively. ^^

[Kimble]

The problem is, your reflect one is way to gimmicky for most people to really care to use or base any strategy around it.

There really isnt much of a reason to make "global" adjustments to shield when PLD is the only job that really uses shield to start with. The only other job that "may" use it is RDM.

As far as fixing Parry, only way to even start to fix it is make the skill matter on anything harder than T.

[kingfury]

The problem is, your reflect one is way to gimmicky for most people to really care to use or base any strategy around it.

There really isnt much of a reason to make "global" adjustments to shield when PLD is the only job that really uses shield to start with. The only other job that "may" use it is RDM.

As far as fixing Parry, only way to even start to fix it is make the skill matter on anything harder than T.

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^^ Again, your only thinking in terms of what kinds of strategy we've had with shield and parry up to this point. I think I'll have to push the Atma comparison a bit more to drive home the logic here. Just take a look at how many enhancing Atmas there are to be had inside Abyssea. Then pick a particular stat or trait to focus on like Double Attack or Evasion. Now there's several Atmas for both of these topics that enhance their performance once set and the effects are instantly visible and noticeable. A Job that doesn't have these traits natively can now devise play style strategy around these enhancements and have great results. For example, a WAR that wanted to be an evasion tank can achieve this strategy with the right set of Evasion enhancing Atmas and gear with great success even though WARs evasion is natively pretty crappy.

Now take that logic and apply it here. Mirror the same concept of what Atmas do for us, in that they enhance our performance in such a way that is very noticeable and effective, to these possible Enhancing Abilities. Players that wish to use a shield effectively during combat would now be able to devise a "similar" strategy to that of what PLDs use so long as the enhancements are creative and effective. Being able to soak up damage using a shield "efficiently" is something that all jobs that can equip a shield could benefit from. The strategy would then be up to the player to get the most out of the enhanced effects, and totally dependent on that players creativity just like any play style in this game. The only reason PLDs are the only job that truly uses shields is because they have abilities that enhance their use of a shield where no one else does. If you can change that fact, you can change the way other jobs effectively use shields.

Parrying would be the same, in that so long as the enhancements were creative and effective, players that understand the logic of how to get the most out of using Parrying as a battle strategy will see the most out of the enhancement. I agree that whatever the enhanced abilities are that they should be powerful enough to use against T~ monsters, yet at the same time, their effectiveness would be dependent on the combat skill lvl of the player. This is where the Atma concept and the Enhanced Ability concept are separate. Atmas will enhance a player no matter what level/skill level a player is working with, where these abilities would root their max potential with higher combat skills and equipment.

[Kimble]

The only jobs with Native Skill shield skill other than PLD is WAR, WHM, BST, THF, RDM. War has C+, WHM D, BST E, and RDM and THF are at F.They would need their base skill to be raised by a lot to even begin to make it useful. On top of that, WAR is always always going to use a Gaxe, if they really want to block damage or reduce the amount of damage taken, they simply would use a PDT or MDT set accordingly. THF will have a very hard time making use of ANY adjustments to shield because their Eva is A+ and their Parry is A-, so if you change Parry to proc better, thats going to be 2 checks before Shield even has a chance to proc.

Again, to make the changes you want, a revamp of the entire system will be needed to even make the changes you want some what useful.

[Bulrogg]

Not really, for instance with atma of the roaring laughter anyone can /mnk and counter like a pro without a "revamp of the entire system". I think this is the type of comparison he is trying to make. With new changes/updates like these and similar to the ones in Abyssea new plays styles are poping up.

[Kimble]

What new play styles popped up exactly in abyssea?

Please define what you consider new, as most that I know of, were used before abyssea as well.

[kingfury]

WAR being an evasion tank is one. ^^lol I used that example, because I've built this play style myself. Though I had the gear before Abyssea, the effectiveness was no where near as prominent as they are inside Abyssea. A dozen others exist, but I'm heading to the pool amt

/Kingfury grabs his towel and sunglasses /cheer