Creating "Job Abilities" for Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Blocking

[Zyeriis]

Dude, you have been given your answer SEVERAL times. SE THEM SELF said they can NOT add WS for throwing and would require reworking the coding from the ground up, which they no longer have the time and resources to do.

You are choosing to ignore this, as well as formulas that are easy that show why you would need to make throwing way over powered to make it worth it as a source of damage.

Also, you have been given a way to make it useful, which wish even said "yeah, that would make it some what better".

Where did I ever say anything about weapon skills? Where did I ever say anything to the contrary regarding what would need to be done within the current confines of the current formulas that govern the current state of ranged attack? Are you that blind that you can't see what I am actually saying?

Also they've said they can't do a lot of things that they ended up doing in the long run (not that this specifically was turned down anyway).

[Kimble]

Unless you have +5-6% haste shoes somewhere, I dont see how you are capping haste.

Comparing the change to exp (which wasnt really a change per say, more a new system was created) to what it would take to change throwing, is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Zyeriis]

Unless you have +5-6% haste shoes somewhere, I dont see how you are capping haste.

Comparing the change to exp (which wasnt really a change per say, more a new system was created) to what it would take to change throwing, is like comparing apples to oranges.

For the record my nin pants are +2 not +1, and I don't use bullwhip for things that fast cast -aga, that would be idiotic.

[Karbuncle]

For the record my nin pants are +2 not +1, and I don't use bullwhip for things that fast cast -aga, that would be idiotic.

Bullwhip is only lowering your resist rate. Also Theres not a lot of NMs where you can regularly resist nukes that are powerful enough you should be worried about.

Then theres Shell V

Any NM thats powerful enough you need to worry about their nukes, You aren't resisting anyway. Even with bar-spells most of them will overwhelm you. Bullwhip is your best bet, Unless you're soloing.

Edit: Was going to suggest Twilight but i assumed he didn't have Shinryu access.

[Zyeriis]

Bullwhip is only lowering your resist rate. Also Theres not a lot of NMs where you can regularly resist nukes that are powerful enough you should be worried about.

Then theres Shell V

Any NM thats powerful enough you need to worry about their nukes, You aren't resisting anyway. Even with bar-spells most of them will overwhelm you. Bullwhip is your best bet, Unless you're soloing.

Situation dependent. Like I said, don't use it for everything.

[AyinDygra]

In regard to the derailment: This topic is about Job Abilities to augment and enhance Defensive Abilities and all Throwing for all jobs that have throwing ability, NOT JUST NINJA and NOT THROWING WEAPONSKILLS. All jobs with Throwing Ability could very well make use of certain additions. These utility abilities could offer them new options to deal with situations, specifically when solo or in low-man groups.

~*~

A "Final" thought on the Ninja subject: Throwing is clearly useful at some point in their careers... if the Job Abilities I presented are given to them early on, while throwing is admittedly useful... these abilities would be admittedly useful. Shuriken do NOT always have to be stronger than melee to be useful (congratulations, one area was found where shuriken cannot realistically compare favorably to melee: after haste drives melee damage insane); there are cases where Ninjas need to use damage other than melee... like when an enemy has crippling non-dispellable spikes and they can't safely engage. And that's just one situation, where yes, these ideas WOULD be useful for Ninjas, even after haste becomes such an important factor.

Now, let's leave the Ninja concerns about throwing back in the "A Ninja without throwing..." thread, and leave this one alone, because they are not the same subject.

~*~

Back on topic:
What are some "Generic" Defensive or Throwing Job Abilities that could be useful to all jobs with those combat skills?

If you can't think of anything on this topic, this really isn't the topic to be posting in. (I've already apologized for my derailment into job specific abilities)

I personally can't think of any new "generic" abilities at this point.

Maybe move "Defender" from Warrior to "generic", since in past FF games, the "Defend" command was available from everyone's command list. In this case, I'd change Defender to also have the effect of raising all defensive abilities' activation rates and grant physical damage reduction rather than the useless bonus to "defense".

[kingfury]

In regard to the derailment: This topic is about Job Abilities to augment and enhance Defensive Abilities and all Throwing for all jobs that have throwing ability, NOT JUST NINJA and NOT THROWING WEAPONSKILLS. All jobs with Throwing Ability could very well make use of certain additions. These utility abilities could offer them new options to deal with situations, specifically when solo or in low-man groups.

~*~

A "Final" thought on the Ninja subject: Throwing is clearly useful at some point in their careers... if the Job Abilities I presented are given to them early on, while throwing is admittedly useful... these abilities would be admittedly useful. Shuriken do NOT always have to be stronger than melee to be useful (congratulations, one area was found where shuriken cannot realistically compare favorably to melee: after haste drives melee damage insane); there are cases where Ninjas need to use damage other than melee... like when an enemy has crippling non-dispellable spikes and they can't safely engage. And that's just one situation, where yes, these ideas WOULD be useful for Ninjas, even after haste becomes such an important factor.

Now, let's leave the Ninja concerns about throwing back in the "A Ninja without throwing..." thread, and leave this one alone, because they are not the same subject.

~*~

Back on topic:
What are some "Generic" Defensive or Throwing Job Abilities that could be useful to all jobs with those combat skills?

If you can't think of anything on this topic, this really isn't the topic to be posting in. (I've already apologized for my derailment into job specific abilities)

I personally can't think of any new "generic" abilities at this point.

Maybe move "Defender" from Warrior to "generic", since in past FF games, the "Defend" command was available from everyone's command list. In this case, I'd change Defender to also have the effect of raising all defensive abilities' activation rates and grant physical damage reduction rather than the useless bonus to "defense".

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Wow >< You took the words out of my mouth ^^

I had to skim through like 3-4 pages of this stuff just to find a clear voice of reason lol. Yet, I don't think people even saw/read your post >< lol. I fear my post won't even dent the persistent iron will to argue that has found it's way in, ><; but I'll try.

My suggestion for "Enhancing Abilities" is just a spring board foundation for adding new life and usefulness to Shield, Parrying, Throwing and Blocking skills. Think of these abilities as starter points for creating new and unique ways to possibly enhance gameplay for numbers of Jobs in FFXI, not just a call for trying to change game code/mechanics. Similar to how Atmas from Abyssea function, try to imagine these abilities as though they were Atmas that enhance Throwing, Blocking, Parrying, and Shield skills/performance you could turn on at will for a time. Then try to imagine what kind of enhancements would make them worthwhile to use.

Damage is only one piece of the possible endless puzzle of enhancements that could be devised for bolstering these skills. "Usefulness" from weapons/abilities/gear/items in this game does not only find their definitive qualities in how much damage can be created from using them. Think outside of that logic for a second, and consider other types of usefulness for the skills in question.

And for those that have repeated the similarities of some of these enhancements, yes, I realize that the spell Reprisal has similar qualities, but the point from the OP is to make them available to other jobs via skill level. PLDs would simply benefit from from the two abilities I suggested in that they would have an added boost to what Reprisal can do. Again, it's no different than a PLD being able to cast Flash on a target as well as use Flash Nova with a club to do the same thing. Similarly, a WAR having Berserk to enhance attack as well as Warcry. Having multiple ways to accomplish a similar/same effect is nothing new to the mix of FFXI.

The biggest point here, again, is that other jobs with the appropriate skill levels would now have new life and functionality when using a shield vs the current mundane and vary unrewarding functionality present today. Equip, and hope it procs. This can be easily changed without recoding the current systems simply by adding enhancements that bring these skills to life. I've only suggested 3 for Throwing and Shield, that's not to say with more planning and creativity even more diverse and unique abilities can't be added to the list.

No where does the OP ask for WS's, only ways to enhancements and bolster these skills.

[Kimble]

Unless you upgraded in the past 24 hours...

Don't even have to use Bullwhip, there is a thing called Twilight belt.

[Kimble]

The problem is, your reflect one is way to gimmicky for most people to really care to use or base any strategy around it.

There really isnt much of a reason to make "global" adjustments to shield when PLD is the only job that really uses shield to start with. The only other job that "may" use it is RDM.

As far as fixing Parry, only way to even start to fix it is make the skill matter on anything harder than T.

[kingfury]

The problem is, your reflect one is way to gimmicky for most people to really care to use or base any strategy around it.

There really isnt much of a reason to make "global" adjustments to shield when PLD is the only job that really uses shield to start with. The only other job that "may" use it is RDM.

As far as fixing Parry, only way to even start to fix it is make the skill matter on anything harder than T.

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^^ Again, your only thinking in terms of what kinds of strategy we've had with shield and parry up to this point. I think I'll have to push the Atma comparison a bit more to drive home the logic here. Just take a look at how many enhancing Atmas there are to be had inside Abyssea. Then pick a particular stat or trait to focus on like Double Attack or Evasion. Now there's several Atmas for both of these topics that enhance their performance once set and the effects are instantly visible and noticeable. A Job that doesn't have these traits natively can now devise play style strategy around these enhancements and have great results. For example, a WAR that wanted to be an evasion tank can achieve this strategy with the right set of Evasion enhancing Atmas and gear with great success even though WARs evasion is natively pretty crappy.

Now take that logic and apply it here. Mirror the same concept of what Atmas do for us, in that they enhance our performance in such a way that is very noticeable and effective, to these possible Enhancing Abilities. Players that wish to use a shield effectively during combat would now be able to devise a "similar" strategy to that of what PLDs use so long as the enhancements are creative and effective. Being able to soak up damage using a shield "efficiently" is something that all jobs that can equip a shield could benefit from. The strategy would then be up to the player to get the most out of the enhanced effects, and totally dependent on that players creativity just like any play style in this game. The only reason PLDs are the only job that truly uses shields is because they have abilities that enhance their use of a shield where no one else does. If you can change that fact, you can change the way other jobs effectively use shields.

Parrying would be the same, in that so long as the enhancements were creative and effective, players that understand the logic of how to get the most out of using Parrying as a battle strategy will see the most out of the enhancement. I agree that whatever the enhanced abilities are that they should be powerful enough to use against T~ monsters, yet at the same time, their effectiveness would be dependent on the combat skill lvl of the player. This is where the Atma concept and the Enhanced Ability concept are separate. Atmas will enhance a player no matter what level/skill level a player is working with, where these abilities would root their max potential with higher combat skills and equipment.