Creating "Job Abilities" for Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Blocking

[Zyeriis]

@ Zyerlis:
lol I didn't know there was a hidden rule on how long it should stay the same ^^ I have a lot of FFXI art I've made over the years! >< Until they make galleries for us to use, /shrugs lol

It was a joke about how people complained about your sig before, and now you change it constantly...(conformist! :Q)

[kingfury]

It was a joke about how people complained about your sig before, and now you change it constantly...(conformist! :Q)

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I know ^^

True strike >< /stagger

[Zyeriis]

Se is NEVER going to do <insert thing you disagree with>!
Abyssea never happened.

Seriously wish, your "arguments" are almost always stuck in the mindset of how things are and not in the possibility of it being completely different. "It's useless now so no matter what they do, it will still be useless." is your argument?

"I don't want this because I want something else" is the most selfish argument ever and holds no water. If you want something else, go post somewhere else about that something else. It is not a legitimate reason to not do something that someone else wants.

I'm just going throw around some more generalizing sentences that define what you're saying and be done.

"You're giving up 2-3 attack rounds right now from using throwing, so they can't possibly adjust that to make up for the difference, <insert no reason as to why they can't other than they haven't yet>"

"They take up inventory space!" Alright, I won't carry around weapons at all either, or gear swaps, or ninja tools, or a scroll of instant warp, because they take up inventory space.

"They cost gil!" Lolwut? Gil is useful?

Btw, "it's proper use and potential are for low level damage dealing" is an opinion on the matter not an argument. "But that's all they're good for, right now" does not mean that was their intended use, you do not speak for the dev team.

"I'll bring a RDM for status effects" Alright, because RDM has every possible status effect available in the game, there is no way there can be status effects they don't have. You also always have a RDM with you everywhere you go? Alright, so I guess you don't carry around enfeebling ninjutsu tools (chonofuda) to "pull with" because it's a better way to pull with because it enfeebles as per your own words? Then why do you need a RDM, oh right, they have MORE enfeebles and better versions of your enfeebles. You shouldn't bother with ninjutsu at all then. Wait then how are you going to pull? Shorter range Provoke only? Lol, Hypocrisy.

Trolls be trolling. I may not particularly agree with all of the ideas presented nor like the silly names but lol, trying to knock ideas for the sake of knocking them is by far, sillier.

[wish12oz]

Se is NEVER going to do <insert thing you disagree with>!
Abyssea never happened.

Seriously wish, your "arguments" are almost always stuck in the mindset of how things are and not in the possibility of it being completely different. "It's useless now so no matter what they do, it will still be useless." is your argument?

Unless they fundamentally change the mechanics of ranged attacks and the way they are used, it will never be useful, why do you people have such a hard time understanding this? Do you know how much work and effort it would take to change core game code, if they even could? Yes, this is my argument, don't you think that if SE could change this it would of been already to make RNG not useless?

"I don't want this because I want something else" is the most selfish argument ever and holds no water. If you want something else, go post somewhere else about that something else. It is not a legitimate reason to not do something that someone else wants.

ZOMG LOOK OUT! THAT WISH GUY WANTS USEFUL STUFF ADDED NOT BS SUPERFICIAL ADJUSTMENTS THAT WON'T DO ANYTHING! HE'S SUCH A BAD PERSON!!

I'm just going throw around some more generalizing sentences that define what you're saying and be done.

"You're giving up 2-3 attack rounds right now from using throwing, so they can't possibly adjust that to make up for the difference, <insert no reason as to why they can't other than they haven't yet>"

Because using any JA, spell or ranged attacks interrupts your ability to melee, it's fundamental game mechanics and will never be changed. And do you really think they're going to improve throwing to the point it makes up 6+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain?As I posted earlier, when I fought Glavoid, the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000. Do you seriously believe SE would add something like that?

"They take up inventory space!" Alright, I won't carry around weapons at all either, or gear swaps, or ninja tools, or a scroll of instant warp, because they take up inventory space.

I use enough inventory with my 17 sets of TP gear, 5 WS builds, MDT set, PDT set, Evasion set, Meds, Food, Ninja tools and proc weapons. Shurikens? no thanks~ Maybe if you were less gimp you'd know what a ninja's inventory should look like and understand the lack of room for much more.

"They cost gil!" Lolwut? Gil is useful?

Because I'm sure you have everything possible that can be bought, sorry some of us don't have every item in the game and every relic and mythic already, so we need our gil for useful items, like ghorns for our mule, that happen to have WHM leveled, and maybe even RDM.

Btw, "it's proper use and potential are for low level damage dealing" is an opinion on the matter not an argument. "But that's all they're good for, right now" does not mean that was their intended use, you do not speak for the dev team.

Math says that's all it's good for. Math is absolute, not opinion. It might not have been the intention originally, but that's how it is now, and it is obvious the Dev team doesn't care or they would of added shurikens for higher levels that were actually obtainable, but they never did in 7? 8? years now. So ya, I'd say the dev team agrees with me based on the simple fact they haven't added ANY shurikens for above 75. SE knows throwing is dead, it's time for the gimpja's to find out.

"I'll bring a RDM for status effects" Alright, because RDM has every possible status effect available in the game, there is no way there can be status effects they don't have. You also always have a RDM with you everywhere you go? Alright, so I guess you don't carry around enfeebling ninjutsu tools (chonofuda) to "pull with" because it's a better way to pull with because it enfeebles as per your own words? Then why do you need a RDM, oh right, they have MORE enfeebles and better versions of your enfeebles. You shouldn't bother with ninjutsu at all then. Wait then how are you going to pull? Shorter range Provoke only? Lol, Hypocrisy.

My arguement of provoke being better because it's faster, and slow/blind being better because they actually do something worthwhile compared to throwing is not hypocritical. I was simply pointing out better ways to pull then throwing. I only use provoke myself. You can stop slightly further away from me, wait 1 second, then use a RA to try and get the mob, but I will just run into provoke range and make it purple for you before your ranged attack resolves. So ya, provoke wins.

I dunno how it is for you, but I have plenty of mage friends to hang out with all the time, and if I didn't, I would go make some. Beyond that I have Kiraen, she's a 90 WHM account I leveled, and guess what! she comes with me everywhere I go, don't even act like I couldn't level RDM to 90 and gear it better then you in 4 days if it was worth doing. Also, RDMs have all the good enfeebles.

Trolls be trolling.

I agree, you should really stop.

I may not particularly agree with all of the ideas presented nor like the silly names but lol, trying to knock ideas for the sake of knocking them is by far, sillier.

Yes, trying to keep my favorite job from getting crap updates the one time every 5 years they update it is a terrible thing, I should be ashamed of myself.

[AyinDygra]

Unless they fundamentally change the mechanics of ranged attacks and the way they are used, it will never be useful, why do you people have such a hard time understanding this? Do you know how much work and effort it would take to change core game code, if they even could? Yes, this is my argument, don't you think that if SE could change this it would of been already to make RNG not useless?

Because using any JA, spell or ranged attacks interrupts your ability to melee, it's fundamental game mechanics and will never be changed. And do you really think they're going to improve throwing to the point it makes up 6+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain?As I posted earlier, when I fought Glavoid, the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000. Do you seriously believe SE would add something like that?

Yes, trying to keep my favorite job from getting crap updates the one time every 5 years they update it is a terrible thing, I should be ashamed of myself.

* Ninja: Throwing Arts

(ammo - Shuriken only) Thorn in the Side: Throw a Shuriken at a spot that is hard to reach, creating great annoyance. (Provoke-like effect and Damage over Time, recast 30sec)

This should be as useful as using Provoke, but removes the need of using the Warrior support job. Being a "Job ability" it would not be restricted by the ranged attack delay... this would be as instant as Provoke, but requires a Shuriken.

(ammo - Shuriken only) Armor Wedge: Lodge a Shuriken in the enemy's body so those attacking the Shuriken cause extra damage to the enemy. (removes partial physical resistance and causes each hit landed on the enemy to inflict "Shuriken Pain" additional damage effect)

This ability could potentially add the necessary "2100" extra damage that you seem to be stuck on, as long as you have other party members attacking for the duration of the effect. The removal of special resistance also has additional benefits under special circumstances.


(ammo - Shuriken only) Shadow Shuriken: For the duration, you have a chance of throwing an extra Shuriken (no ammo consumed) for each Utsusemi shadow active. (Not the same as Sange: Not always 100% and does not consume shadows or ammo)

Depending on how many shadows you have up, and if "Armor Wedge" is active, each shuriken could trigger "Shuriken Pain", magnifying the damage caused by any ranged attacks.


(ammo - Scrolls only) Ninjutsu Secrets: Using a Far Eastern Ninjutsu scroll, enhance elemental damage of Ninjutsu for the duration and make them "area of effect" rather than single target.

Clearly, in instances where this is used, you want to be dealing elemental damage, not physical damage, so you won't be meleeing anyway. This is very useful in such cases.



Throwing CAN be made useful... you just have to be creative!

(These ideas are taken from my throwing ability post (link), including throwing abilities for other jobs too!)

[wish12oz]

Throwing CAN be made useful... you just have to be creative!

None of that is useful. Sorry to burst your bubble. I fail to see how any of that would make up for losing qirmiz tathlum and the requirement of losing 3 inventory spaces for shurikens. Do you even understand that shurikens need to do 6->10x more damage and gain 6->10x more TP then they currently do to become even with just meleeing? Not to mention if they add all that and it doesn't do MORE then meleeing, no one would use it anyway and it would be a complete waste of SE's time. Look at what you're proposing again, and then instead of saying 'this makes it do damage' say how much more damage it needs to do to become useful, then step back and look at how ridiculous it looks after you do that, and ask yourself if SE would really add it.

And it's obvious you have no idea whats going on from your lack of understanding on the warrior subjob, you think you sub it for provoke, when it's actual use is that it provides the largest damage increase compared to any other sub job. Please learn how to play ninja properly and what is good and useful and why it is good and useful before you propse ideas to try and improve the job, please.

[AyinDygra]

None of that is useful. I fail to see how any of that would make up for losing qirmiz tathlum and the requirement of losing 3 inventory spaces for shurikens. Look at what you're proposing again, and then instead of saying 'this makes it do damage' say how much more damage it needs to do to become useful, then step back and look at how ridiculous it looks after you do that, and ask yourself if SE would really add it.

And it's obvious you have no idea whats going on from your lack of understanding on the warrior subjob, you think you sub it for provoke, when it's actual use is that it provides the largest damage increase compared to any other sub job.

I'll address a couple points here:
First, Thorn in the Side: I was only making reference to the warrior support job as to the usage of "Provoke", not for any other combat advantages. IF you only used /war for Provoke (not really the reason anymore), this would replace it. It was a comparison to show how powerful (or weak) of a hate tool "Thorn" would be for a Ninja. In addition, it has a damage over time effect, probably minor, but it would be designed with a continued addition of enmity, rather than declining.

As for Armor Wedge, to be "useful" or "more powerful", this requires a party (or alliance) to increase its strength, so it doesn't directly overpower Ninja itself. Let's take these numbers as non-optimal EXAMPLES. I don't claim to be a math wiz, I'm a concept person. Tweaking is inevitable; getting TOO detailed is an exercise in futility.

If the added effect was 25dmg per hit, it would take 84 hits to reach 2100 damage. The ninja alone could get 84 hits in 42 non-double/triple-attack rounds, at "about" 2 seconds per round (not going by the maximum possible gear for everybody), that comes to "about" 84 seconds. If we make the duration of this effect 30 seconds, and you add 2 other melee, you could clearly benefit from this ability, damage-wise. And that's with only 2 other attackers. It would probably be best to keep this effect to the party only, since an alliance would really magnify this damage far too much.

Shadow Shuriken is probably the weakest of the ideas due to the randomness involved, but it's also assuming SE adds more powerful shuriken, perhaps with a new added effect such as: Latent: (shadow shuriken active) double all shuriken attacks. ... Now, with this shuriken and 5 shadows, it could trigger 12 shuriken hits for 1 shuriken expended. Each shuriken hit would trigger "Shuriken Pain" for 25 dmg each = 300 bonus damage and a massive boost to TP for more weaponskills, to make up for lost melee time. (each hit of the subsequent weaponskill could also trigger "shuriken pain")

No, I don't think it's crazy to expect them to add these abilities. SE has become much more generous with abilities that push the limits and work toward the unique aspects of the combat system. A small example is how self-skillchaining isn't only the domain of samurai anymore. Allowing Ninjas to use throwing to facilitate massive TP gain for self-skillchaining isn't that far-fetched, especially if it incorporates throwing, (an aspect of the job they thought was important at one point, given how high Ninja's throwing skill is).

Edit: sorry to kingfury for partially derailing... although, I'd still consider it to be "on topic", since I don't see generic "enhancements" being applicable to all jobs, and this sort of specificity really makes the ideas more realistic.

[wish12oz]

I'll address a couple points here:
First, Thorn in the Side: I was only making reference to the warrior support job as to the usage of "Provoke", not for any other combat advantages. IF you only used /war for Provoke (not really the reason anymore), this would replace it. It was a comparison to show how powerful (or weak) of a hate tool "Thorn" would be for a Ninja. In addition, it has a damage over time effect, probably minor, but it would be designed with a continued addition of enmity, rather than declining.

As for Armor Wedge, to be "useful" or "more powerful", this requires a party (or alliance) to increase its strength, so it doesn't directly overpower Ninja itself. Let's take these numbers as non-optimal EXAMPLES. I don't claim to be a math wiz, I'm a concept person. Tweaking is inevitable; getting TOO detailed is an exercise in futility.

If the added effect was 25dmg per hit, it would take 84 hits to reach 2100 damage. The ninja alone could get 84 hits in 42 non-double/triple-attack rounds, at "about" 2 seconds per round (not going by the maximum possible gear for everybody), that comes to "about" 84 seconds. If we make the duration of this effect 30 seconds, and you add 2 other melee, you could clearly benefit from this ability, damage-wise. And that's with only 2 other attackers. It would probably be best to keep this effect to the party only, since an alliance would really magnify this damage far too much.

Shadow Shuriken is probably the weakest of the ideas due to the randomness involved, but it's also assuming SE adds more powerful shuriken, perhaps with a new added effect such as: Latent: (shadow shuriken active) double all shuriken attacks. ... Now, with this shuriken and 5 shadows, it could trigger 12 shuriken hits for 1 shuriken expended. Each shuriken hit would trigger "Shuriken Pain" for 25 dmg each = 300 bonus damage and a massive boost to TP for more weaponskills, to make up for lost melee time. (each hit of the subsequent weaponskill could also trigger "shuriken pain")

No, I don't think it's crazy to expect them to add these abilities. SE has become much more generous with abilities that push the limits and work toward the unique aspects of the combat system. A small example is how self-skillchaining isn't only the domain of samurai anymore. Allowing Ninjas to use throwing to facilitate massive TP gain for self-skillchaining isn't that far-fetched, especially if it incorporates throwing, (an aspect of the job they thought was important at one point, given how high Ninja's throwing skill is).

Edit: sorry to kingfury for partially derailing... although, I'd still consider it to be "on topic", since I don't see generic "enhancements" being applicable to all jobs, and this sort of specificity really makes the ideas more realistic.

Provoke is only useful for initial claim or hate to get it off whoever poped it, and not subbing WAR is just dumb. So why give up qirmiz for a shuriken so you can use an ability you already have access to that isn't even all that useful? useless

Ok so the next ability is only useful on higher tier NMs, cause they live longer then 1->10 seconds, and only if you have a bunch of people doing it too, and it only catches up to just meleeing after using it a bunch? And in the end, unless you have 5+ people using it, the time spent getting up to being even with melee damage lasts longer then the phase after that point where it becomes useful, so in the end, this is a DPS loss. useless

Next ability, shadow shuriken. Provided you are fighting something hard enough to warrant casting shadows, you are not going to be keeping them long enough for this to be effective enough to be using since it would only be worth using when you have a high shadows count. Maybe if they add utsu san and give it a fast cast timer, and make it 6 shadows with af3+2 shoes, and add cheap good shurikens this ability would have a purpose. It would depend on activation rate of getting those extra throws. If it always happens, you could at least use it once per cast and get an increase out of it. But in the end this relies heavily on SE adding a bunch of stuff they've shown they have no interest in adding, so it's also useless.

Yes, throwing was an aspect of ninja SE thought was good once, then they nerfed ranged damage calculations, and made haste gear more easily available, then updated 2 handed weapons, then made haste even more accessible, and haven't ever gone back to try and make throwing viable beyond level 60, they haven't even added a single shuriken above level 75, and the only ones above level 60 are a bit ridiculous to acquire. So I would say it is a bit much to expect SE to care about throwing at all, the only way SE will care is if a bunch of gimps make a fuss on the forums and people who know better don't step in and tell them why they're wrong and confirm SE's opinion and stance on the issue and set them straight and tell them throwing is garbage.

[Zyeriis]

Unless they fundamentally change the mechanics of ranged attacks and the way they are used, it will never be useful, why do you people have such a hard time understanding this? Do you know how much work and effort it would take to change core game code, if they even could? Yes, this is my argument, don't you think that if SE could change this it would of been already to make RNG not useless?

Why do you have such a hard time understanding that the argument that you think they'll never change the fundamentals equates to an actual reason why the idea is bad (cause it doesn't). Putting words in people's mouths (or making assumptions is just a wasted post on your part. Ideas aren't bad because they would take work to make reality. That's called being lazy, and isn't an actual reason why the idea is bad but, please, by all means continue to make a fool out of yourself and post pointless things regarding that.

ZOMG LOOK OUT! THAT WISH GUY WANTS USEFUL STUFF ADDED NOT BS SUPERFICIAL ADJUSTMENTS THAT WON'T DO ANYTHING! HE'S SUCH A BAD PERSON!!

ZOMG LOOK OUT! A HIGHLY OPINIONATED PERSON WHO PASSES THAT OPINION OFF AS FACT! THEY'RE IDEA IS RIGHT BECAUSE THEY WERE THE ONE WHO CAME UP WITH IT, ANY OPPOSING IDEAS ARE WRONG IF THAT PERSON DIDN'T THINK OF IT!

Because using any JA, spell or ranged attacks interrupts your ability to melee, it's fundamental game mechanics and will never be changed. And do you really think they're going to improve throwing to the point it makes up 6+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain?As I posted earlier, when I fought Glavoid, the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000. Do you seriously believe SE would add something like that?

Abyssea.

I use enough inventory with my 17 sets of TP gear, 5 WS builds, MDT set, PDT set, Evasion set, Meds, Food, Ninja tools and proc weapons. Shurikens? no thanks~ Maybe if you were less gimp you'd know what a ninja's inventory should look like and understand the lack of room for much more.

"You suck because I said so with no proof". You forgot fast cast equipment btw.

Because I'm sure you have everything possible that can be bought, sorry some of us don't have every item in the game and every relic and mythic already, so we need our gil for useful items, like ghorns for our mule, that happen to have WHM leveled, and maybe even RDM.

Per your words: "Maybe if you were less gimp."

Math says that's all it's good for. Math is absolute, not opinion. It might not have been the intention originally, but that's how it is now, and it is obvious the Dev team doesn't care or they would of added shurikens for higher levels that were actually obtainable, but they never did in 7? 8? years now. So ya, I'd say the dev team agrees with me based on the simple fact they haven't added ANY shurikens for above 75. SE knows throwing is dead, it's time for the gimpja's to find out.

You like to state obvious things while replying to things that have nothing to do with the very math you are "defending". Math is absolute, so are replacement math formulas that cater to something entirely different (which is the point). Well your argument is that they're useless below 60, not 75. "If they haven't done it yet they won't" again? Alright, keep telling yourself that, it's funny.

My arguement of provoke being better because it's faster, and slow/blind being better because they actually do something worthwhile compared to throwing is not hypocritical. I was simply pointing out better ways to pull then throwing. I only use provoke myself. You can stop slightly further away from me, wait 1 second, then use a RA to try and get the mob, but I will just run into provoke range and make it purple for you before your ranged attack resolves. So ya, provoke wins.

Congratulations you missed what was hypocritical and tried to cover it up with something you've already said (that is completely irrelevant). Also, secondary congratulations are in order for only using provoke to pull (which I now assume you mean to claim, which is different but I'm not surprised you don't know the correct terms for things). Pulling with Provoke = suck less, Claiming with Provoke = intelligent (unless some one with dia is around). Also, btw in case you didn't realize, Provoke isn't a job ability of Ninja, it's not native to Ninja. Not all situations have Ninja subbing Warrior (unless you're a n00b, in which case, again, suck less). Not that it's relevant in the least as it pertains not to fixing throwing and is just a derailment point. "This is how things are right now" + "They'll never change things" is making me lol and I'll repeat myself: Abyssea.

P.S. you missed commenting on the "RDM doesn't have every possible enfeeble in the game" main point of what you replied to. You read good.

I dunno how it is for you, but I have plenty of mage friends to hang out with all the time, and if I didn't, I would go make some. Beyond that I have Kiraen, she's a 90 WHM account I leveled, and guess what! she comes with me everywhere I go, don't even act like I couldn't level RDM to 90 and gear it better then you in 4 days if it was worth doing. Also, RDMs have all the good enfeebles.

Do that, then you won't be a liar anymore (cause you just blatantly admitted that you don't have a RDM with ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT of the time. Also, WHM isn't RDM in case you forgot, I know it's hard to think but you need to try. (Also, lmfao another "You suck!" comment, grow the hell up or provide some proof n00b).

Yes, trying to keep my favorite job from getting crap updates the one time every 5 years they update it is a terrible thing, I should be ashamed of myself.

You're trying to stop it? I thought it was never going to happen? Oh right.

[Azucares]

the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000.

lol Most Shurikens have a delay of 192 which means it will have a base TP return of 5.2 TP. to calculate store TP it's the base TP return times 1+(total store tp/100). so if you have 100 store TP 5.2 X 2 = 10.4 TP. or if you have 477 store TP its 5.2 X 5.77 = 30.0 TP. (note the game doesn't record your TP past the tenth decimal place.) lol so if you really had 25000 store TP then 5.2 X 251 = 1305.2 TP will be returned. sadly characters cannot receive this amount so the true return would be 300.

So here is my question are you implying that SE needs to increase the storage tank for our TP, or do you just not know how to calculate your TP returns? lol