Creating "Job Abilities" for Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Blocking

**Kimble** · 06-03-2011 05:12 AM

Btw, your "Shield retaliation" is basically Reprisal.

As far as the reflecting the sun one. Wouldn't that not work in dungeons or during weather?

**Zyeriis** · 06-03-2011 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by wish12oz

Unless they fundamentally change the mechanics of ranged attacks and the way they are used, it will never be useful, why do you people have such a hard time understanding this? Do you know how much work and effort it would take to change core game code, if they even could? Yes, this is my argument, don't you think that if SE could change this it would of been already to make RNG not useless?

Why do you have such a hard time understanding that the argument that you think they'll never change the fundamentals equates to an actual reason why the idea is bad (cause it doesn't). Putting words in people's mouths (or making assumptions is just a wasted post on your part. Ideas aren't bad because they would take work to make reality. That's called being lazy, and isn't an actual reason why the idea is bad but, please, by all means continue to make a fool out of yourself and post pointless things regarding that.

Originally Posted by wish12oz

ZOMG LOOK OUT! THAT WISH GUY WANTS USEFUL STUFF ADDED NOT BS SUPERFICIAL ADJUSTMENTS THAT WON'T DO ANYTHING! HE'S SUCH A BAD PERSON!!

ZOMG LOOK OUT! A HIGHLY OPINIONATED PERSON WHO PASSES THAT OPINION OFF AS FACT! THEY'RE IDEA IS RIGHT BECAUSE THEY WERE THE ONE WHO CAME UP WITH IT, ANY OPPOSING IDEAS ARE WRONG IF THAT PERSON DIDN'T THINK OF IT!

Originally Posted by wish12oz

Because using any JA, spell or ranged attacks interrupts your ability to melee, it's fundamental game mechanics and will never be changed. And do you really think they're going to improve throwing to the point it makes up 6+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain?As I posted earlier, when I fought Glavoid, the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000. Do you seriously believe SE would add something like that?

Abyssea.

Originally Posted by wish12oz

I use enough inventory with my 17 sets of TP gear, 5 WS builds, MDT set, PDT set, Evasion set, Meds, Food, Ninja tools and proc weapons. Shurikens? no thanks~ Maybe if you were less gimp you'd know what a ninja's inventory should look like and understand the lack of room for much more.

"You suck because I said so with no proof". You forgot fast cast equipment btw.

Originally Posted by wish12oz

Because I'm sure you have everything possible that can be bought, sorry some of us don't have every item in the game and every relic and mythic already, so we need our gil for useful items, like ghorns for our mule, that happen to have WHM leveled, and maybe even RDM.

Per your words: "Maybe if you were less gimp."

Originally Posted by wish12oz

Math says that's all it's good for. Math is absolute, not opinion. It might not have been the intention originally, but that's how it is now, and it is obvious the Dev team doesn't care or they would of added shurikens for higher levels that were actually obtainable, but they never did in 7? 8? years now. So ya, I'd say the dev team agrees with me based on the simple fact they haven't added ANY shurikens for above 75. SE knows throwing is dead, it's time for the gimpja's to find out.

You like to state obvious things while replying to things that have nothing to do with the very math you are "defending". Math is absolute, so are replacement math formulas that cater to something entirely different (which is the point). Well your argument is that they're useless below 60, not 75. "If they haven't done it yet they won't" again? Alright, keep telling yourself that, it's funny.

Originally Posted by wish12oz

My arguement of provoke being better because it's faster, and slow/blind being better because they actually do something worthwhile compared to throwing is not hypocritical. I was simply pointing out better ways to pull then throwing. I only use provoke myself. You can stop slightly further away from me, wait 1 second, then use a RA to try and get the mob, but I will just run into provoke range and make it purple for you before your ranged attack resolves. So ya, provoke wins.

Congratulations you missed what was hypocritical and tried to cover it up with something you've already said (that is completely irrelevant). Also, secondary congratulations are in order for only using provoke to pull (which I now assume you mean to claim, which is different but I'm not surprised you don't know the correct terms for things). Pulling with Provoke = suck less, Claiming with Provoke = intelligent (unless some one with dia is around). Also, btw in case you didn't realize, Provoke isn't a job ability of Ninja, it's not native to Ninja. Not all situations have Ninja subbing Warrior (unless you're a n00b, in which case, again, suck less). Not that it's relevant in the least as it pertains not to fixing throwing and is just a derailment point. "This is how things are right now" + "They'll never change things" is making me lol and I'll repeat myself: Abyssea.

P.S. you missed commenting on the "RDM doesn't have every possible enfeeble in the game" main point of what you replied to. You read good.

Originally Posted by wish12oz

I dunno how it is for you, but I have plenty of mage friends to hang out with all the time, and if I didn't, I would go make some. Beyond that I have Kiraen, she's a 90 WHM account I leveled, and guess what! she comes with me everywhere I go, don't even act like I couldn't level RDM to 90 and gear it better then you in 4 days if it was worth doing. Also, RDMs have all the good enfeebles.

Do that, then you won't be a liar anymore (cause you just blatantly admitted that you don't have a RDM with ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT of the time. Also, WHM isn't RDM in case you forgot, I know it's hard to think but you need to try. (Also, lmfao another "You suck!" comment, grow the hell up or provide some proof n00b).

Originally Posted by wish12oz

Yes, trying to keep my favorite job from getting crap updates the one time every 5 years they update it is a terrible thing, I should be ashamed of myself.

You're trying to stop it? I thought it was never going to happen? Oh right.

**Kimble** · 06-03-2011 06:00 AM

You don't seem to realize that the development team isnt as large as it once was and if they havent bothered to change it in over 8 years of the game, its very unlikely they will change it now.

People have been asking for YEARS for throwing WS and they came out and said they are unable to do that because the coding doesnt allow to tell the difference between a dart and a boomerang and a bow in that slot. They would have to do a total rework on the system to do that and at this point in time for them, it isnt worth the resources to do so.

**Karbuncle** · 06-03-2011 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by wish12oz

How about if we're going to propose JA's and abilities for NIN, we address the things that make NIN useless. Like very high level mobs where your katanas do jacknothing for damage, your acc is poor, and your evasion is useless, instead of thinking throwing can somehow be saved. Let's address the real problems with ninja, and the reason it was a bottom barrel DD for years before abyssea came out.

I can't fathom how any real NIN would argue with this logic. its reasonable. My bet is anyone arguing with Wish is either thick headed or just arguing with them cause "Wish is a meanie" and he doesn't sugar coat his responses.

and Zyer, wish has actually mathed out the reason Throwing is really terrible before. In some 20-odd page thread about Throwing. Just because in FF2 or 3, or maybe Naruto, Throwing was "cool" for NIN, does not mean it fits in this games.

Its not Wish bashing throwing just for the sake of bashing it. Its the absolute core of this games mechanics that make throwing unviable right now, and any buff too it would have to be incredibly unbelievably broken and over-powered to even remotely make throwing useful for damage.

Now, Damage aside, If they added Shuriken that maybe Addled, Amnesia'd, Gravitied, or general Debuffs that may be useful for something they could become very situational pieces of Equipment.

Now, If you just don't get all your RP from crappy NIN animes, You know Ninjas never use Shurikens as a main source of Combat. In fact, most "Ninjas" used Shurikens as a first-effort, to either attract or kill an enemy from distance, They never randomly dropped their Katana and tossed a Shuriken at someone mid combat.

Even if "naruta" Shuriken fail 99% of the time and are basically flashy useless weapons that never make contact or do any real damage. like in FFXI.

So, We need to just forget the idea of Buffing Shuriken to do damage, and focus on giving shuriken with more of a debuff type Benefit, where it could at least be situationaly useful. I.E like i mentioned Above, Very low delay Shurikens with Various Debuffs. For instance

"脳スパイク" (Brain Spike)
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Amnesia

this shuriken, While it will not make up for the damage of lost swings, Might be useful for pulling, Have the Amnesia last up to ~1minute, and you have a method of pulling that prevents most/all Exp mobs from Being able to TP.

In Fact, have this Effect NMs, With such a low delay, it could literally act as a Stun for a TP move. The amnesia proc on NMs could last only ~3/5 seconds. But if you're quick, can effectively prevent a dangerous TP move.

Silence Shuriken
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Silence

This one, Like the above, Won't make up for lose TP/DMG For attack rounds, But if used for pulling on a casting mob, Might save your shadows from Diaga II or Poisonga II (which they love to cast).

Same as Above, Make it work on NMs, Regardless of their Resistance. Effectively stunning/stopping a spell mid-cast. While it wont make up for lost damage, for some, it may be worth it. maybe maybe not.

Basically, Make Shuriken useful for what they really were. situational tools used by NIN. There is no realistic way to buff Shuriken DMG to outweigh 2-3 Attack rounds on NIN, so we should try to focus on making them useful for certain aspects of the playstyle.

Edit: And the good thing is, the above would take literally minimal Development time. It would take as much time to make the above shuriken as it is to make any other item. This will give some Ninjas a very situational use for Shurikens for something other than Damage, and take minimal development time.

**Rocl** · 06-03-2011 06:19 AM

What if you use Sange with those debuff shurikens?

**Karbuncle** · 06-03-2011 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Rocl

What if you use Sange with those debuff shurikens?

Whats... "sange"?

**wish12oz** · 06-03-2011 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by AyinDygra

I'll address a couple points here:
First, Thorn in the Side: I was only making reference to the warrior support job as to the usage of "Provoke", not for any other combat advantages. IF you only used /war for Provoke (not really the reason anymore), this would replace it. It was a comparison to show how powerful (or weak) of a hate tool "Thorn" would be for a Ninja. In addition, it has a damage over time effect, probably minor, but it would be designed with a continued addition of enmity, rather than declining.

As for Armor Wedge, to be "useful" or "more powerful", this requires a party (or alliance) to increase its strength, so it doesn't directly overpower Ninja itself. Let's take these numbers as non-optimal EXAMPLES. I don't claim to be a math wiz, I'm a concept person. Tweaking is inevitable; getting TOO detailed is an exercise in futility.

If the added effect was 25dmg per hit, it would take 84 hits to reach 2100 damage. The ninja alone could get 84 hits in 42 non-double/triple-attack rounds, at "about" 2 seconds per round (not going by the maximum possible gear for everybody), that comes to "about" 84 seconds. If we make the duration of this effect 30 seconds, and you add 2 other melee, you could clearly benefit from this ability, damage-wise. And that's with only 2 other attackers. It would probably be best to keep this effect to the party only, since an alliance would really magnify this damage far too much.

Shadow Shuriken is probably the weakest of the ideas due to the randomness involved, but it's also assuming SE adds more powerful shuriken, perhaps with a new added effect such as: Latent: (shadow shuriken active) double all shuriken attacks. ... Now, with this shuriken and 5 shadows, it could trigger 12 shuriken hits for 1 shuriken expended. Each shuriken hit would trigger "Shuriken Pain" for 25 dmg each = 300 bonus damage and a massive boost to TP for more weaponskills, to make up for lost melee time. (each hit of the subsequent weaponskill could also trigger "shuriken pain")

No, I don't think it's crazy to expect them to add these abilities. SE has become much more generous with abilities that push the limits and work toward the unique aspects of the combat system. A small example is how self-skillchaining isn't only the domain of samurai anymore. Allowing Ninjas to use throwing to facilitate massive TP gain for self-skillchaining isn't that far-fetched, especially if it incorporates throwing, (an aspect of the job they thought was important at one point, given how high Ninja's throwing skill is).

Edit: sorry to kingfury for partially derailing... although, I'd still consider it to be "on topic", since I don't see generic "enhancements" being applicable to all jobs, and this sort of specificity really makes the ideas more realistic.

Provoke is only useful for initial claim or hate to get it off whoever poped it, and not subbing WAR is just dumb. So why give up qirmiz for a shuriken so you can use an ability you already have access to that isn't even all that useful? useless

Ok so the next ability is only useful on higher tier NMs, cause they live longer then 1->10 seconds, and only if you have a bunch of people doing it too, and it only catches up to just meleeing after using it a bunch? And in the end, unless you have 5+ people using it, the time spent getting up to being even with melee damage lasts longer then the phase after that point where it becomes useful, so in the end, this is a DPS loss. useless

Next ability, shadow shuriken. Provided you are fighting something hard enough to warrant casting shadows, you are not going to be keeping them long enough for this to be effective enough to be using since it would only be worth using when you have a high shadows count. Maybe if they add utsu san and give it a fast cast timer, and make it 6 shadows with af3+2 shoes, and add cheap good shurikens this ability would have a purpose. It would depend on activation rate of getting those extra throws. If it always happens, you could at least use it once per cast and get an increase out of it. But in the end this relies heavily on SE adding a bunch of stuff they've shown they have no interest in adding, so it's also useless.

Yes, throwing was an aspect of ninja SE thought was good once, then they nerfed ranged damage calculations, and made haste gear more easily available, then updated 2 handed weapons, then made haste even more accessible, and haven't ever gone back to try and make throwing viable beyond level 60, they haven't even added a single shuriken above level 75, and the only ones above level 60 are a bit ridiculous to acquire. So I would say it is a bit much to expect SE to care about throwing at all, the only way SE will care is if a bunch of gimps make a fuss on the forums and people who know better don't step in and tell them why they're wrong and confirm SE's opinion and stance on the issue and set them straight and tell them throwing is garbage.

**Rocl** · 06-03-2011 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Whats... "sange"?

Just because you don't have the correct T2 merited doesn't mean others don't.

**HFX7686** · 06-03-2011 06:51 AM

Please stop suggesting throwing stuff for ninja. It's a horrible suggestion and really should be dropped.

Give ninja something decent in terms of damage, don't break the game (as clearly explained above) just to play about with throwing.

**wish12oz** · 06-03-2011 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Basically, Make Shuriken useful for what they really were. situational tools used by NIN. There is no realistic way to buff Shuriken DMG to outweigh 2-3 Attack rounds on NIN, so we should try to focus on making them useful for certain aspects of the playstyle.

This is really the only viable option, and only if it's 100% proc, otherwise you're better off with someone casting the spells instead of wasting time/gil/inventory/macro spots.

Originally Posted by Kimble

You don't seem to realize that the development team isnt as large as it once was and if they havent bothered to change it in over 8 years of the game, its very unlikely they will change it now.

People have been asking for YEARS for throwing WS and they came out and said they are unable to do that because the coding doesnt allow to tell the difference between a dart and a boomerang and a bow in that slot. They would have to do a total rework on the system to do that and at this point in time for them, it isnt worth the resources to do so.

This is the right answer, why do you think SE added snapshot? It was because they couldn't make haste affect ranged attacks, so they added something new because they couldn't go back and change core game mechanics. And ya, development team is very very small now, no way they're going to do it now when it wasn't done before when the team was bigger and working on less then they are right now.