Creating "Job Abilities" for Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Blocking

[kingfury]

It was a joke about how people complained about your sig before, and now you change it constantly...(conformist! :Q)

----------
I know ^^

True strike >< /stagger

[wish12oz]

@ wish12oz:
On the topic of Throwing being useless, it just sounds like you haven't discovered it's proper use and potential.

It's proper use and potential are for low level damage dealing and hate keeping, nothing more. Once you hit 60 you need to let it go and move on and accept that it's inferior to everything else you can do. Pulling is better done with provoke/kurayami/hojo, those are better and serve a purpose beyond tp+2 which is just lol. Status effect shurikens? I'll bring a RDM if I need something like that, or cast them myself. Throwing has no place for ninjas above level 60, there's no point and no reason you can give to make it worth using.

New JA's for throwing suffer from the fact you're giving up 2-3 attack rounds just using them from the JA use delay, unless they have ranged delay added into them, then you can give up even more, but if they don't meet the damage and tp gained from those 2-3 melee attack rounds, guess what! that's right, it would be useless. Also the fact you would have to carry shurikens, and waste inventory/gil on them, and unless the damage they inflict makes it significantly worth it, no one will bother, and no one bothering would make it a waste of SE's time to add.

Throwing is dead once you reach 60, there's no way SE will ever add anything worthwhile to make it usable or matter. However, if you want to propose JA's and idea's that could be implemented that make it worthwhile, go right ahead, but I'm not going to let weak useless stuff get by without criticizing it to hell and calling it useless, last thing ninja needs is another POS yonin/ininn useless set of JAs added so SE can feel like they did something good for ninja when all they did was waste their time coding some BS JA's that weren't even useful.

How about if we're going to propose JA's and abilities for NIN, we address the things that make NIN useless. Like very high level mobs where your katanas do jacknothing for damage, your acc is poor, and your evasion is useless, instead of thinking throwing can somehow be saved. Let's address the real problems with ninja, and the reason it was a bottom barrel DD for years before abyssea came out.

[Zyeriis]

Se is NEVER going to do <insert thing you disagree with>!
Abyssea never happened.

Seriously wish, your "arguments" are almost always stuck in the mindset of how things are and not in the possibility of it being completely different. "It's useless now so no matter what they do, it will still be useless." is your argument?

"I don't want this because I want something else" is the most selfish argument ever and holds no water. If you want something else, go post somewhere else about that something else. It is not a legitimate reason to not do something that someone else wants.

I'm just going throw around some more generalizing sentences that define what you're saying and be done.

"You're giving up 2-3 attack rounds right now from using throwing, so they can't possibly adjust that to make up for the difference, <insert no reason as to why they can't other than they haven't yet>"

"They take up inventory space!" Alright, I won't carry around weapons at all either, or gear swaps, or ninja tools, or a scroll of instant warp, because they take up inventory space.

"They cost gil!" Lolwut? Gil is useful?

Btw, "it's proper use and potential are for low level damage dealing" is an opinion on the matter not an argument. "But that's all they're good for, right now" does not mean that was their intended use, you do not speak for the dev team.

"I'll bring a RDM for status effects" Alright, because RDM has every possible status effect available in the game, there is no way there can be status effects they don't have. You also always have a RDM with you everywhere you go? Alright, so I guess you don't carry around enfeebling ninjutsu tools (chonofuda) to "pull with" because it's a better way to pull with because it enfeebles as per your own words? Then why do you need a RDM, oh right, they have MORE enfeebles and better versions of your enfeebles. You shouldn't bother with ninjutsu at all then. Wait then how are you going to pull? Shorter range Provoke only? Lol, Hypocrisy.

Trolls be trolling. I may not particularly agree with all of the ideas presented nor like the silly names but lol, trying to knock ideas for the sake of knocking them is by far, sillier.

[wish12oz]

Se is NEVER going to do <insert thing you disagree with>!
Abyssea never happened.

Seriously wish, your "arguments" are almost always stuck in the mindset of how things are and not in the possibility of it being completely different. "It's useless now so no matter what they do, it will still be useless." is your argument?

Unless they fundamentally change the mechanics of ranged attacks and the way they are used, it will never be useful, why do you people have such a hard time understanding this? Do you know how much work and effort it would take to change core game code, if they even could? Yes, this is my argument, don't you think that if SE could change this it would of been already to make RNG not useless?

"I don't want this because I want something else" is the most selfish argument ever and holds no water. If you want something else, go post somewhere else about that something else. It is not a legitimate reason to not do something that someone else wants.

ZOMG LOOK OUT! THAT WISH GUY WANTS USEFUL STUFF ADDED NOT BS SUPERFICIAL ADJUSTMENTS THAT WON'T DO ANYTHING! HE'S SUCH A BAD PERSON!!

I'm just going throw around some more generalizing sentences that define what you're saying and be done.

"You're giving up 2-3 attack rounds right now from using throwing, so they can't possibly adjust that to make up for the difference, <insert no reason as to why they can't other than they haven't yet>"

Because using any JA, spell or ranged attacks interrupts your ability to melee, it's fundamental game mechanics and will never be changed. And do you really think they're going to improve throwing to the point it makes up 6+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain?As I posted earlier, when I fought Glavoid, the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000. Do you seriously believe SE would add something like that?

"They take up inventory space!" Alright, I won't carry around weapons at all either, or gear swaps, or ninja tools, or a scroll of instant warp, because they take up inventory space.

I use enough inventory with my 17 sets of TP gear, 5 WS builds, MDT set, PDT set, Evasion set, Meds, Food, Ninja tools and proc weapons. Shurikens? no thanks~ Maybe if you were less gimp you'd know what a ninja's inventory should look like and understand the lack of room for much more.

"They cost gil!" Lolwut? Gil is useful?

Because I'm sure you have everything possible that can be bought, sorry some of us don't have every item in the game and every relic and mythic already, so we need our gil for useful items, like ghorns for our mule, that happen to have WHM leveled, and maybe even RDM.

Btw, "it's proper use and potential are for low level damage dealing" is an opinion on the matter not an argument. "But that's all they're good for, right now" does not mean that was their intended use, you do not speak for the dev team.

Math says that's all it's good for. Math is absolute, not opinion. It might not have been the intention originally, but that's how it is now, and it is obvious the Dev team doesn't care or they would of added shurikens for higher levels that were actually obtainable, but they never did in 7? 8? years now. So ya, I'd say the dev team agrees with me based on the simple fact they haven't added ANY shurikens for above 75. SE knows throwing is dead, it's time for the gimpja's to find out.

"I'll bring a RDM for status effects" Alright, because RDM has every possible status effect available in the game, there is no way there can be status effects they don't have. You also always have a RDM with you everywhere you go? Alright, so I guess you don't carry around enfeebling ninjutsu tools (chonofuda) to "pull with" because it's a better way to pull with because it enfeebles as per your own words? Then why do you need a RDM, oh right, they have MORE enfeebles and better versions of your enfeebles. You shouldn't bother with ninjutsu at all then. Wait then how are you going to pull? Shorter range Provoke only? Lol, Hypocrisy.

My arguement of provoke being better because it's faster, and slow/blind being better because they actually do something worthwhile compared to throwing is not hypocritical. I was simply pointing out better ways to pull then throwing. I only use provoke myself. You can stop slightly further away from me, wait 1 second, then use a RA to try and get the mob, but I will just run into provoke range and make it purple for you before your ranged attack resolves. So ya, provoke wins.

I dunno how it is for you, but I have plenty of mage friends to hang out with all the time, and if I didn't, I would go make some. Beyond that I have Kiraen, she's a 90 WHM account I leveled, and guess what! she comes with me everywhere I go, don't even act like I couldn't level RDM to 90 and gear it better then you in 4 days if it was worth doing. Also, RDMs have all the good enfeebles.

Trolls be trolling.

I agree, you should really stop.

I may not particularly agree with all of the ideas presented nor like the silly names but lol, trying to knock ideas for the sake of knocking them is by far, sillier.

Yes, trying to keep my favorite job from getting crap updates the one time every 5 years they update it is a terrible thing, I should be ashamed of myself.

[AyinDygra]

Unless they fundamentally change the mechanics of ranged attacks and the way they are used, it will never be useful, why do you people have such a hard time understanding this? Do you know how much work and effort it would take to change core game code, if they even could? Yes, this is my argument, don't you think that if SE could change this it would of been already to make RNG not useless?

Because using any JA, spell or ranged attacks interrupts your ability to melee, it's fundamental game mechanics and will never be changed. And do you really think they're going to improve throwing to the point it makes up 6+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain?As I posted earlier, when I fought Glavoid, the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000. Do you seriously believe SE would add something like that?

Yes, trying to keep my favorite job from getting crap updates the one time every 5 years they update it is a terrible thing, I should be ashamed of myself.

* Ninja: Throwing Arts

(ammo - Shuriken only) Thorn in the Side: Throw a Shuriken at a spot that is hard to reach, creating great annoyance. (Provoke-like effect and Damage over Time, recast 30sec)

This should be as useful as using Provoke, but removes the need of using the Warrior support job. Being a "Job ability" it would not be restricted by the ranged attack delay... this would be as instant as Provoke, but requires a Shuriken.

(ammo - Shuriken only) Armor Wedge: Lodge a Shuriken in the enemy's body so those attacking the Shuriken cause extra damage to the enemy. (removes partial physical resistance and causes each hit landed on the enemy to inflict "Shuriken Pain" additional damage effect)

This ability could potentially add the necessary "2100" extra damage that you seem to be stuck on, as long as you have other party members attacking for the duration of the effect. The removal of special resistance also has additional benefits under special circumstances.


(ammo - Shuriken only) Shadow Shuriken: For the duration, you have a chance of throwing an extra Shuriken (no ammo consumed) for each Utsusemi shadow active. (Not the same as Sange: Not always 100% and does not consume shadows or ammo)

Depending on how many shadows you have up, and if "Armor Wedge" is active, each shuriken could trigger "Shuriken Pain", magnifying the damage caused by any ranged attacks.


(ammo - Scrolls only) Ninjutsu Secrets: Using a Far Eastern Ninjutsu scroll, enhance elemental damage of Ninjutsu for the duration and make them "area of effect" rather than single target.

Clearly, in instances where this is used, you want to be dealing elemental damage, not physical damage, so you won't be meleeing anyway. This is very useful in such cases.



Throwing CAN be made useful... you just have to be creative!

(These ideas are taken from my throwing ability post (link), including throwing abilities for other jobs too!)

[wish12oz]

Throwing CAN be made useful... you just have to be creative!

None of that is useful. Sorry to burst your bubble. I fail to see how any of that would make up for losing qirmiz tathlum and the requirement of losing 3 inventory spaces for shurikens. Do you even understand that shurikens need to do 6->10x more damage and gain 6->10x more TP then they currently do to become even with just meleeing? Not to mention if they add all that and it doesn't do MORE then meleeing, no one would use it anyway and it would be a complete waste of SE's time. Look at what you're proposing again, and then instead of saying 'this makes it do damage' say how much more damage it needs to do to become useful, then step back and look at how ridiculous it looks after you do that, and ask yourself if SE would really add it.

And it's obvious you have no idea whats going on from your lack of understanding on the warrior subjob, you think you sub it for provoke, when it's actual use is that it provides the largest damage increase compared to any other sub job. Please learn how to play ninja properly and what is good and useful and why it is good and useful before you propse ideas to try and improve the job, please.

[kingfury]

@ AyinDygra:
Very kool ideas! ^^ Thanks for the input /salute

However, I do want to point out that the OP is suggesting "Enhanced Abilities" in these skills for ALL jobs, not just specifically NIN. Ninja would definitely benefit the most from the Throwing Enhanced Abilities, similar to how PLD would from the Defending abilities, but I'm suggesting that all that have the appropriate skill levels have access to these Abilities.

The base point of the suggestions are to possibly bring these skills into use more often during gameplay. The creative part is finding ways to "Bolster" or "Enhance"(hence the term Enhancing Abilities instead of Job abilities) their effects to do just that.

[wish12oz]

@ AyinDygra:
Very kool ideas! ^^ Thanks for the input /salute

However, I do want to point out that the OP is suggesting "Enhanced Abilities" in these skills for ALL jobs, not just specifically NIN. Ninja would definitely benefit the most from the Throwing Enhanced Abilities, similar to how PLD would from the Defending abilities, but I'm suggesting that all that have the appropriate skill levels have access to these Abilities.

The base point of the suggestions are to possibly bring these skills into use more often during gameplay. The creative part is finding ways to "Bolster" or "Enhance"(hence the term Enhancing Abilities instead of Job abilities) their effects to do just that.

The problem is that you have to make them worthwhile to use or it's a waste of SE's time, and nothing involving throwing is worth SE's time, unless they were to outright delete it so their servers don't have to deal with threads about it anymore. That could totally be worth it.

[AyinDygra]

None of that is useful. I fail to see how any of that would make up for losing qirmiz tathlum and the requirement of losing 3 inventory spaces for shurikens. Look at what you're proposing again, and then instead of saying 'this makes it do damage' say how much more damage it needs to do to become useful, then step back and look at how ridiculous it looks after you do that, and ask yourself if SE would really add it.

And it's obvious you have no idea whats going on from your lack of understanding on the warrior subjob, you think you sub it for provoke, when it's actual use is that it provides the largest damage increase compared to any other sub job.

I'll address a couple points here:
First, Thorn in the Side: I was only making reference to the warrior support job as to the usage of "Provoke", not for any other combat advantages. IF you only used /war for Provoke (not really the reason anymore), this would replace it. It was a comparison to show how powerful (or weak) of a hate tool "Thorn" would be for a Ninja. In addition, it has a damage over time effect, probably minor, but it would be designed with a continued addition of enmity, rather than declining.

As for Armor Wedge, to be "useful" or "more powerful", this requires a party (or alliance) to increase its strength, so it doesn't directly overpower Ninja itself. Let's take these numbers as non-optimal EXAMPLES. I don't claim to be a math wiz, I'm a concept person. Tweaking is inevitable; getting TOO detailed is an exercise in futility.

If the added effect was 25dmg per hit, it would take 84 hits to reach 2100 damage. The ninja alone could get 84 hits in 42 non-double/triple-attack rounds, at "about" 2 seconds per round (not going by the maximum possible gear for everybody), that comes to "about" 84 seconds. If we make the duration of this effect 30 seconds, and you add 2 other melee, you could clearly benefit from this ability, damage-wise. And that's with only 2 other attackers. It would probably be best to keep this effect to the party only, since an alliance would really magnify this damage far too much.

Shadow Shuriken is probably the weakest of the ideas due to the randomness involved, but it's also assuming SE adds more powerful shuriken, perhaps with a new added effect such as: Latent: (shadow shuriken active) double all shuriken attacks. ... Now, with this shuriken and 5 shadows, it could trigger 12 shuriken hits for 1 shuriken expended. Each shuriken hit would trigger "Shuriken Pain" for 25 dmg each = 300 bonus damage and a massive boost to TP for more weaponskills, to make up for lost melee time. (each hit of the subsequent weaponskill could also trigger "shuriken pain")

No, I don't think it's crazy to expect them to add these abilities. SE has become much more generous with abilities that push the limits and work toward the unique aspects of the combat system. A small example is how self-skillchaining isn't only the domain of samurai anymore. Allowing Ninjas to use throwing to facilitate massive TP gain for self-skillchaining isn't that far-fetched, especially if it incorporates throwing, (an aspect of the job they thought was important at one point, given how high Ninja's throwing skill is).

Edit: sorry to kingfury for partially derailing... although, I'd still consider it to be "on topic", since I don't see generic "enhancements" being applicable to all jobs, and this sort of specificity really makes the ideas more realistic.

[Kimble]

I think we should add more "circle" Abilities!