Creating "Job Abilities" for Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Blocking

[kingfury]

@ wish12oz:
Well luckily there's no argument here since I believe there's just been a misunderstanding about what I'm asking for. That, and you're thinking about throwing's potential in the wrong way as a whole.

The OP is suggesting "Enhancing Abilities" that would bolster the skills in question, not weapon skills.

"It has been suggested before over the years to add weapon skills to things like throwing, and I'm not really sure of the reasons given as to why they can't be, but rather than a ws, perhaps adding Job/Enhancing Abilities that enhance the Throwing experience would be a more logical (easy to implement) approach to such a request."

On the topic of Throwing being useless, it just sounds like you haven't discovered it's proper use and potential. Throwing is in no way designed to match your damage output from melee attacks or TP gain, so that's the first misconception that needs to be address.

*Throwing is 1st, a means to "Agro" monsters for the Provokeless and Non-spell casting job types. For those jobs that have no means of grabbing the attention of monsters other than running up to them and engaging, Throwing allows them the functionality pull from afar, as well as provides some TP for the puller that successfully nails the target.

*Secondly, don't dismiss the TP you gain from a successful throwing attack. Rather than starting from a possible 0 TP at the start of a fight, depending on the weapon, you could start with some TP before even engaging the target and build on from there getting you to 100 faster. In another case, you could be sitting at 90'ish TP before you pull, and potentially reach 100 TP before you engage the monster allowing for an instant WS as you actually begin the fight.

On the topic of making these skills "useful", that's the point of the Thread. The Devs could include new throwing weapons with specific stats that push these possible enhancing abilities even further. Imagine a throwing weapon that had drain stats pegged onto it and had a decent drain amount. The double attack on "Doubled Mark" would pull in some nice HP/MP/TP potential at that point. Especially if it was "Drains TP" ^^. You just have to think outside the box, and pop in some creativity with the mix of ideas.

[wish12oz]

@ wish12oz:
On the topic of Throwing being useless, it just sounds like you haven't discovered it's proper use and potential.

It's proper use and potential are for low level damage dealing and hate keeping, nothing more. Once you hit 60 you need to let it go and move on and accept that it's inferior to everything else you can do. Pulling is better done with provoke/kurayami/hojo, those are better and serve a purpose beyond tp+2 which is just lol. Status effect shurikens? I'll bring a RDM if I need something like that, or cast them myself. Throwing has no place for ninjas above level 60, there's no point and no reason you can give to make it worth using.

New JA's for throwing suffer from the fact you're giving up 2-3 attack rounds just using them from the JA use delay, unless they have ranged delay added into them, then you can give up even more, but if they don't meet the damage and tp gained from those 2-3 melee attack rounds, guess what! that's right, it would be useless. Also the fact you would have to carry shurikens, and waste inventory/gil on them, and unless the damage they inflict makes it significantly worth it, no one will bother, and no one bothering would make it a waste of SE's time to add.

Throwing is dead once you reach 60, there's no way SE will ever add anything worthwhile to make it usable or matter. However, if you want to propose JA's and idea's that could be implemented that make it worthwhile, go right ahead, but I'm not going to let weak useless stuff get by without criticizing it to hell and calling it useless, last thing ninja needs is another POS yonin/ininn useless set of JAs added so SE can feel like they did something good for ninja when all they did was waste their time coding some BS JA's that weren't even useful.

How about if we're going to propose JA's and abilities for NIN, we address the things that make NIN useless. Like very high level mobs where your katanas do jacknothing for damage, your acc is poor, and your evasion is useless, instead of thinking throwing can somehow be saved. Let's address the real problems with ninja, and the reason it was a bottom barrel DD for years before abyssea came out.

[Karbuncle]

How about if we're going to propose JA's and abilities for NIN, we address the things that make NIN useless. Like very high level mobs where your katanas do jacknothing for damage, your acc is poor, and your evasion is useless, instead of thinking throwing can somehow be saved. Let's address the real problems with ninja, and the reason it was a bottom barrel DD for years before abyssea came out.

I can't fathom how any real NIN would argue with this logic. its reasonable. My bet is anyone arguing with Wish is either thick headed or just arguing with them cause "Wish is a meanie" and he doesn't sugar coat his responses.

and Zyer, wish has actually mathed out the reason Throwing is really terrible before. In some 20-odd page thread about Throwing. Just because in FF2 or 3, or maybe Naruto, Throwing was "cool" for NIN, does not mean it fits in this games.

Its not Wish bashing throwing just for the sake of bashing it. Its the absolute core of this games mechanics that make throwing unviable right now, and any buff too it would have to be incredibly unbelievably broken and over-powered to even remotely make throwing useful for damage.

Now, Damage aside, If they added Shuriken that maybe Addled, Amnesia'd, Gravitied, or general Debuffs that may be useful for something they could become very situational pieces of Equipment.

Now, If you just don't get all your RP from crappy NIN animes, You know Ninjas never use Shurikens as a main source of Combat. In fact, most "Ninjas" used Shurikens as a first-effort, to either attract or kill an enemy from distance, They never randomly dropped their Katana and tossed a Shuriken at someone mid combat.

Even if "naruta" Shuriken fail 99% of the time and are basically flashy useless weapons that never make contact or do any real damage. like in FFXI.

So, We need to just forget the idea of Buffing Shuriken to do damage, and focus on giving shuriken with more of a debuff type Benefit, where it could at least be situationaly useful. I.E like i mentioned Above, Very low delay Shurikens with Various Debuffs. For instance

"脳スパイク" (Brain Spike)
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Amnesia

this shuriken, While it will not make up for the damage of lost swings, Might be useful for pulling, Have the Amnesia last up to ~1minute, and you have a method of pulling that prevents most/all Exp mobs from Being able to TP.

In Fact, have this Effect NMs, With such a low delay, it could literally act as a Stun for a TP move. The amnesia proc on NMs could last only ~3/5 seconds. But if you're quick, can effectively prevent a dangerous TP move.

Silence Shuriken
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Silence

This one, Like the above, Won't make up for lose TP/DMG For attack rounds, But if used for pulling on a casting mob, Might save your shadows from Diaga II or Poisonga II (which they love to cast).

Same as Above, Make it work on NMs, Regardless of their Resistance. Effectively stunning/stopping a spell mid-cast. While it wont make up for lost damage, for some, it may be worth it. maybe maybe not.

Basically, Make Shuriken useful for what they really were. situational tools used by NIN. There is no realistic way to buff Shuriken DMG to outweigh 2-3 Attack rounds on NIN, so we should try to focus on making them useful for certain aspects of the playstyle.

Edit: And the good thing is, the above would take literally minimal Development time. It would take as much time to make the above shuriken as it is to make any other item. This will give some Ninjas a very situational use for Shurikens for something other than Damage, and take minimal development time.

[wish12oz]

Basically, Make Shuriken useful for what they really were. situational tools used by NIN. There is no realistic way to buff Shuriken DMG to outweigh 2-3 Attack rounds on NIN, so we should try to focus on making them useful for certain aspects of the playstyle.

This is really the only viable option, and only if it's 100% proc, otherwise you're better off with someone casting the spells instead of wasting time/gil/inventory/macro spots.

You don't seem to realize that the development team isnt as large as it once was and if they havent bothered to change it in over 8 years of the game, its very unlikely they will change it now.

People have been asking for YEARS for throwing WS and they came out and said they are unable to do that because the coding doesnt allow to tell the difference between a dart and a boomerang and a bow in that slot. They would have to do a total rework on the system to do that and at this point in time for them, it isnt worth the resources to do so.

This is the right answer, why do you think SE added snapshot? It was because they couldn't make haste affect ranged attacks, so they added something new because they couldn't go back and change core game mechanics. And ya, development team is very very small now, no way they're going to do it now when it wasn't done before when the team was bigger and working on less then they are right now.

Why do you have such a hard time understanding that the argument that you think they'll never change the fundamentals equates to an actual reason why the idea is bad (cause it doesn't). Putting words in people's mouths (or making assumptions is just a wasted post on your part. Ideas aren't bad because they would take work to make reality. That's called being lazy, and isn't an actual reason why the idea is bad but, please, by all means continue to make a fool out of yourself and post pointless things regarding that.

How many years has it been now and SE hasn't changed the basic mechanics of the game? Seriously, look at the above response.

Abyssea.

How did Abyssea change the fundimental aspects of the way the game is coded and works? All I see is a bunch of buffs added to players, no reworking of any mechanics.

Per your words: "Maybe if you were less gimp."

Not having every relic and mythic in the game makes you gimp, you heard it here first!

Math is absolute, so are replacement math formulas that cater to something entirely different (which is the point). Well your argument is that they're useless below 60, not 75. "If they haven't done it yet they won't" again? Alright, keep telling yourself that, it's funny.

You're totally right, it's reasonable to expect the small dev team they have now to work on these issues when they've been known issues for years and SE didn't work on them when the dev team was larger then it is now and was doing less then they are now.
Do you have any common sense at all?

Congratulations you missed what was hypocritical and tried to cover it up with something you've already said (that is completely irrelevant)

You said pull with shurikens to get that 2 tp, I pointed out better things to pull with, I fail to see how that is irrelevant to the discussion or hypocritical.

Math Not all situations have Ninja subbing Warrior (unless you're a n00b, in which case, again, suck less).

Only fools don't sub WAR, making things die faster and increasing productivity is the best thing you can do. That's what WAR sub gives you. If you use some other subjob for anything, you're doing it wrong. Give examples where different subjobs would be useful, in your opinion, and I will tell you why you're doing it wrong, ok?

P.S. you missed commenting on the "RDM doesn't have every possible enfeeble in the game" main point of what you replied to. You read good.

Which enfeebles is it exactly that RDM doesn't have that are worth casting again?
I can't think of any, they have slow and blind afterall, even have level 2 versions of them that are more potent then Kurayami and Hojo Ni!

Do that, then you won't be a liar anymore (cause you just blatantly admitted that you don't have a RDM with ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT of the time.

RDM isn't required, I was just pointing out that if it was required for some of the enfeebling spells it has, you would be better off getting a RDM. Why do you fail to comprehend this?

Also, WHM isn't RDM in case you forgot

You totally right, it's better.

I know it's hard to think but you need to try. (Also, lmfao another "You suck!" comment, grow the hell up or provide some proof n00b).

What would you like me to provide proof of exactly? That I have friends or 2 accounts?
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kaerin
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kiraen

There's guildwork links to my characters if you want to check them out, there's even pics of them being logged in at the same time while I solo DI/SW with them!
I dunno how to prove I have friends, maybe if you give me your phone # I can have them call you or something, would that work for you? lol

You're trying to stop it? I thought it was never going to happen? Oh right.

Yes I would very much like to stop another useless update for NIN where we get crap JA's like yonin and ininn that aren't even useful.

[Zyeriis]

How many years has it been now and SE hasn't changed the basic mechanics of the game? Seriously, look at the above response.

Abyssea.

How did Abyssea change the fundimental aspects of the way the game is coded and works? All I see is a bunch of buffs added to players, no reworking of any mechanics.

Experience points system, Weakness Targetting, Key items that affect things without having to be activated (abyssites). That's just some things from Abyssea, let's go elsewhere for a moment. Having to "set" Rent-a-rooms, "We can't expand inventory any further" > Mog satchel/mog sack, etc.

Not having every relic and mythic in the game makes you gimp, you heard it here first!

You're totally right, it's reasonable to expect the small dev team they have now to work on these issues when they've been known issues for years and SE didn't work on them when the dev team was larger then it is now and was doing less then they are now.
Do you have any common sense at all?

Do you have any common sense at all? Also, relic/mythic are the only rare/ex pieces of equipment, got it.

You said pull with shurikens to get that 2 tp, I pointed out better things to pull with, I fail to see how that is irrelevant to the discussion or hypocritical.

Where?

Only fools don't sub WAR, making things die faster and increasing productivity is the best thing you can do. That's what WAR sub gives you. If you use some other subjob for anything, you're doing it wrong. Give examples where different subjobs would be useful, in your opinion, and I will tell you why you're doing it wrong, ok?

K, /dnc is totally useless, so is /drk. Stunning is useless in general. Want to make things die even faster and stun stuff? /drk.

Which enfeebles is it exactly that RDM doesn't have that are worth casting again?
I can't think of any, they have slow and blind afterall, even have level 2 versions of them that are more potent then Kurayami and Hojo Ni!

Ah because every enfeeble in the game is a spell and is available to players. You can't think of a lot of things.

RDM isn't required, I was just pointing out that if it was required for some of the enfeebling spells it has, you would be better off getting a RDM. Why do you fail to comprehend this?

Then don't imply that it is when arguing that you can just bring a RDM to do those things. Why do you fail to comprehend that giving such status effects to throwing weapons would nullify that possible "necessity". Do you disagree that RDM is ever a "necessity"? Fine, then what's the problem? If you are saying the opposite: that RDM is a necessity in some situations, refer to enfeebling abilities (for players) that do not currently exist (amnesia, zombie, etc.), at least not for RDM or NIN. This would put the shurikens at least on par (by your definition of useful) with enfeebles (ninjutsu or otherwise) if they enfeebled things in ways not available otherwise.

What would you like me to provide proof of exactly? That I have friends or 2 accounts?
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kaerin
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kiraen

There's guildwork links to my characters if you want to check them out, there's even pics of them being logged in at the same time while I solo DI/SW with them!
I dunno how to prove I have friends, maybe if you give me your phone # I can have them call you or something, would that work for you? lol

K, how does that prove the following:

don't even act like I couldn't level RDM to 90 and gear it better then you in 4 days if it was worth doing

?

[Zyeriis]

and Zyer, wish has actually mathed out the reason Throwing is really terrible before. In some 20-odd page thread about Throwing. Just because in FF2 or 3, or maybe Naruto, Throwing was "cool" for NIN, does not mean it fits in this games.

Which is irrelevant to adjusting it. That's the problem, not the solution.

Its not Wish bashing throwing just for the sake of bashing it. Its the absolute core of this games mechanics that make throwing unviable right now, and any buff too it would have to be incredibly unbelievably broken and over-powered to even remotely make throwing useful for damage.

As far as I'm concerned it is, as wish hasn't actually said anything other than "it's never going to be fixed".

Now, Damage aside, If they added Shuriken that maybe Addled, Amnesia'd, Gravitied, or general Debuffs that may be useful for something they could become very situational pieces of Equipment.

So are 90% of the other useful things in the game.

Now, If you just don't get all your RP from crappy NIN animes, You know Ninjas never use Shurikens as a main source of Combat. In fact, most "Ninjas" used Shurikens as a first-effort, to either attract or kill an enemy from distance, They never randomly dropped their Katana and tossed a Shuriken at someone mid combat.

They should remove ninjutsu too then, and haste + magic.

So, We need to just forget the idea of Buffing Shuriken to do damage, and focus on giving shuriken with more of a debuff type Benefit, where it could at least be situationaly useful. I.E like i mentioned Above, Very low delay Shurikens with Various Debuffs. For instance

"脳スパイク" (Brain Spike)
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Amnesia

this shuriken, While it will not make up for the damage of lost swings, Might be useful for pulling, Have the Amnesia last up to ~1minute, and you have a method of pulling that prevents most/all Exp mobs from Being able to TP.

In Fact, have this Effect NMs, With such a low delay, it could literally act as a Stun for a TP move. The amnesia proc on NMs could last only ~3/5 seconds. But if you're quick, can effectively prevent a dangerous TP move.

Silence Shuriken
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Silence

This one, Like the above, Won't make up for lose TP/DMG For attack rounds, But if used for pulling on a casting mob, Might save your shadows from Diaga II or Poisonga II (which they love to cast).

Same as Above, Make it work on NMs, Regardless of their Resistance. Effectively stunning/stopping a spell mid-cast. While it wont make up for lost damage, for some, it may be worth it. maybe maybe not.

Agreed.

Basically, Make Shuriken useful for what they really were. situational tools used by NIN. There is no realistic way to buff Shuriken DMG to outweigh 2-3 Attack rounds on NIN, so we should try to focus on making them useful for certain aspects of the playstyle.

I don't think anyone has argued against that. (You know, other than wish trying to completely knock any and all forms of ideas regarding any other way of making shurikens useful by saying they still won't outweigh 2-3 attacks while arguing that enfeebling ninjutsu pulling/in general is useful but that doing the same thing to shurikens wouldn't be for some insane non-reason based steeply in the current shape of the game).

[Karbuncle]

They should remove ninjutsu too then, and haste + magic.

Some RP elements are fine, Its why they call it an "RPG", I'm only saying, calling a job a failure/suck/etc for leaving out 1 RP element amongst many is a stupid excuse to force an irrelevant buff on a job that is fine without some magical fix to RP Shurikens more.

The job isn't "unfinished" or "Broken" because it doesn't RP every element of media images of Ninjas.

Plus, if you even looked or knew what ninja tools meant, You would know, outside of Utsusemi and Migawari, Most of them make a lot of Sense.

Suiton is just a Water Pump
Doton are spikes/rocks of some sort
etc etc, Most of them are Real-life tools that would inflict that sort of damage, Animation is just flashy.

So Ninjutsu is actually the most realistic thing of the Ninja job, using Tools to inflict damage.

[wish12oz]

Which is irrelevant to adjusting it. That's the problem, not the solution.

It's the problem, and it makes everything you want not possible. There is no solution to the problem of making shurikens do better damage then to go change core game mechanics, which SE has not and will not do.

As far as I'm concerned it is, as wish hasn't actually said anything other than "it's never going to be fixed".

How has SE provided any inclination to make you think they will go rework basic game fundamental mechanics?


Wanna race RDM 1-90? then Race to almace, fullaf3+2, full potency enfeebling sets and the best possible nuking and WS sets? Keep in mind I can solo all of this, and have tons of gil to buy things with and an LS full of people who would seriously help me, and you probably don't, so I think the race is solidly in my favor, but if you wanna do it, I'm down.


I provide math and common sense as my only arguments for why things are bad and should not be added, maybe you should reread the things I say.

[Zyeriis]

With the rise of "instant cast" on the horizon (see: apocalypse atma, ironic), I see little reason to not adjust consumable throwing items to be instantly thrown with delay between throwing (and allowing multiple shurikens to be thrown simultaneously). Provoke also doesn't have the same range as other things, even if it is instant, provoke isnt as effective as some people seem to think for pulling (since you have to be closer to do it). Telling a ninja they shouldn't use shurikens should be like telling a samurai they shouldn't have a zanshin build. It should still be possible.

Also, kingfury changes signatures too much. /stops poking the bear.

[kingfury]

@ Zyerlis:
lol I didn't know there was a hidden rule on how long it should stay the same ^^ I have a lot of FFXI art I've made over the years! >< Until they make galleries for us to use, /shrugs lol