Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

[Ravenmore]

Its not work. You said it your self it could take 2 days just to get a party or find people willing to do a party that you put to gether. There are very few complety new players joining the game at this stage. The exp grind and top heavy nature of the game thats been around since end of CoP has put off anyone that would have tried the game. When even game mag points that out or crap show like X-play push it people stay away.

The game is dated, only keeping the core players that don't like WoW or the wow clones sticking around. The job system of FF11 being the biggest reason most stay, no need to make another toon(in wow that is what they look like) go back though the same content not only to level but having to redo everything else you done. In FF11 once you finish a mission its good for the life of your char no matter what job you decided to take up along the way.

In todays game market its all about whats new and fresh and why even WoW has people jumping ship for whats is basicly the same game with differnt names. On top of that other games have massive ad runs pushing the games where SE seems really just want to run off word of mouth outside of Japan.

Me and other said it so many times now, gimps were every were at 75. They did the same as you did put thier own parties together and on the way to 75 people were lot less picky taking a invite from said gimps. You couldn't say anything to them if they were leaders, only things you could do was suck it up take what you could get or drop out and Blist them. You know the players i'm taking about lvl 75 with 3/5 af1 with str rings. Better yet the players that TP in heca and haste gear saying that it even out.

[Chocobits]

It appears Akujima has given up on a lost cause. I've been saying and saying that:

A) It's impossible to win this thread, since it's between 2 deeply seated camps.
B) It's an opinion war and nobody is going to change camps.
C) SE's introduction of GoV is a firm indication that they do, in fact want to better the exp grind experience by making positive changes.
D) As with above, improving the exp system outside of Abyssea will eliminate the need for leeching.
E) Faster exp does not diminish the skill level of the average player. Either they will ask questions/research after they burn up, continue to suck, or never touch the job again after it's 90. That's been happening since day 1 and speed of exp has nothing to do with the mindset and willingness or aptitude of each individual to pick up on their jobs.

The question I've asked 3x now (which has been completely glossed over by petty personal arguments) and I think is pretty much the heart of the entire argument:

Why are 75+ players entitled to higher exp per hour?

still hasn't been answered.

Unless someone can give a firm, irrefutable reason for the above, this entire thread is a gigantic load of hypocrisy and should be shut down.

Also, how did you think you were "winning" when you only had 2 vocal supporters the entire time, whose only supportive arguments were farfetched/irrelevant analogies? You lost this thread as soon as you titled it and clicked submit thread.

[Ravenmore]

In my opinion being 75 does not mean we are entitled to faster. Accross the board or not at all. SE seems to feel the same since with the EXP increase for outside of abysea you can hit 30 rather fast.

[Panthera]

THEY ACTUALLY CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE DOING...

...gonna go out on a limb here, do you feel very strongly about this?

As before, you're merely being loud, cursing in bold all caps, using emotion rather than reason to win the point. This is a debate/discussion, I will not be drawn into a shouting match. Otherwise, it just comes down to who will use more exclamation points and the biggest font, which doesn't prove anything.

Shouting doesn't make your arguement stronger, it makes it weaker, and hurts your cause. I can see making the main points of a direct quote from SE in bold, or a word, perhaps even a sentence for emphasis. By all means, carry on. But even though you'll be shouting, let me assure you I won't hear you.

[Chocobits]

Panthera vs Greatguardian pseudo-intellectual bantering is boring me to tears. Respond to my points Panthera if any portion of your logic has an iota of legitimacy.

*edit*
Also, stop saying this thread is a debate. It was never a debate until you rolled in herpdy derpdy and started rambling about how everything you dislike = cheating.

*double edit*
This:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post105131

My post yesterday has more likes than this thread's OP has gotten in a week. Unpopular idea is unpopular. I'm ready for my cake. At the end of my testing, will I be missed?

[Greatguardian]

I don't shout. I'm simply used to having to bold important things around certain people (it knows who it is) because they pretty much don't read anything anyone else types unless it's bold/underlined/italic.

This is not a debate, however. There is no argument to be had. There is simply rhetoric and semantics. You may consider bypassing a portion of the EXP curve using an intentional and well-known game mechanic cheating, others don't. I may consider Leeching to be a subjective term that applies to anyone who is not pulling their weight in a group, whether they are level 30 or 90, whether their skills are 0 or capped, whether they've been playing for 10 days or 10 years, and others don't.

Either way, I think this entire thread, and all of the preceding threads on this same topic, are a complete waste of time. This is not something that is ever going to change, especially when the population is so severely split on the issue. Hell, the entire population could be adamantly against Abyssea exp and it may not change. I don't really want to hear about "Feedback", and "Making voices heard", because everyone heard the community's voice the first dozen times this same thread was made. They heard it in thousands and thousands of posts. There is not a single thing more that can be gleaned from making more threads like this and throwing the same worn out arguments at one another.

In the end, Abyssea EXP is fast EXP which allows weaker players to leech off of stronger players. I don't care if they're 30 or 90, this was the single best thing that could ever happen to 90% of the FFXI population. PUPs can actually get exp invites. People can show up to a party in their absolute shit gear and 4% total Haste and no one will kick them on the spot, because someone else will make up the slack somewhere. People who never would have stood a chance in competitive party play are able to gain as much EXP as anyone else because they are able to leech off of stronger, better geared players.

You don't need 2 Bards to EXP. You don't need Polearms or gtfo. That one DRK fulltiming a Wyvern Helm is not going to cut your EXP/hr from 25k to 8k. That WHM who refuses to use macros or change gear and barely cures is bearable because people have Temp Items that are restored at a decent rate. BLMs are no longer forced to solo/duo EXP from 50+. Beastmaster actually sees the light of day if only because Nazuna is stronger than your average gimp DD.

Yes. Abyssea promotes Leeching. The entire Abyssean EXP system is designed around Leeching. Level 30s leech. Level 90s leech. When I join a party and parse more than 75% of the entire alliance damage on Paladin, everyone else there is leeching off me. But I am fine with that. It does not negatively affect me in the slightest. I get the same amount of exp solo as I do in an alliance of 18 people.

Abyssea EXP, and ToTM, were an attempt to promote cooperation within the historically viciously competitive FFXI playerbase. And it worked. BG is probably the most mellow forum around now, since there's no reason to fight with anyone any more. Some people find it boring, since they practically lived off the competition. I think it's a nice change of pace. Instead of worrying about how someone else is getting their EXP, why don't we all just do our own thing?

[Arlan]

I don't shout. I'm simply used to having to bold important things around certain people (it knows who it is) because they pretty much don't read anything anyone else types unless it's bold/underlined/italic.

This is not a debate, however. There is no argument to be had. There is simply rhetoric and semantics. You may consider bypassing a portion of the EXP curve using an intentional and well-known game mechanic cheating, others don't. I may consider Leeching to be a subjective term that applies to anyone who is not pulling their weight in a group, whether they are level 30 or 90, whether their skills are 0 or capped, whether they've been playing for 10 days or 10 years, and others don't.

Either way, I think this entire thread, and all of the preceding threads on this same topic, are a complete waste of time. This is not something that is ever going to change, especially when the population is so severely split on the issue. Hell, the entire population could be adamantly against Abyssea exp and it may not change. I don't really want to hear about "Feedback", and "Making voices heard", because everyone heard the community's voice the first dozen times this same thread was made. They heard it in thousands and thousands of posts. There is not a single thing more that can be gleaned from making more threads like this and throwing the same worn out arguments at one another.

In the end, Abyssea EXP is fast EXP which allows weaker players to leech off of stronger players. I don't care if they're 30 or 90, this was the single best thing that could ever happen to 90% of the FFXI population. PUPs can actually get exp invites. People can show up to a party in their absolute shit gear and 4% total Haste and no one will kick them on the spot, because someone else will make up the slack somewhere. People who never would have stood a chance in competitive party play are able to gain as much EXP as anyone else because they are able to leech off of stronger, better geared players.

You don't need 2 Bards to EXP. You don't need Polearms or gtfo. That one DRK fulltiming a Wyvern Helm is not going to cut your EXP/hr from 25k to 8k. That WHM who refuses to use macros or change gear and barely cures is bearable because people have Temp Items that are restored at a decent rate. BLMs are no longer forced to solo/duo EXP from 50+. Beastmaster actually sees the light of day if only because Nazuna is stronger than your average gimp DD.

Yes. Abyssea promotes Leeching. The entire Abyssean EXP system is designed around Leeching. Level 30s leech. Level 90s leech. When I join a party and parse more than 75% of the entire alliance damage on Paladin, everyone else there is leeching off me. But I am fine with that. It does not negatively affect me in the slightest. I get the same amount of exp solo as I do in an alliance of 18 people.

Abyssea EXP, and ToTM, were an attempt to promote cooperation within the historically viciously competitive FFXI playerbase. And it worked. BG is probably the most mellow forum around now, since there's no reason to fight with anyone any more. Some people find it boring, since they practically lived off the competition. I think it's a nice change of pace. Instead of worrying about how someone else is getting their EXP, why don't we all just do our own thing?

this guy knows what he is talking about.

[Panthera]

You cannot say that I am cheating by 'leeching' any of my three accounts to have level 90 jobs. Functionally they are the same; that is, they are all me.

I don't neccessarally doubt they're your accounts originally, and that you're playing them as opposed to someone else. What's dubious is that having a 90 supposes you earned exp on each of them independantly, especially when by your own admission you didn't.

I can play on all three accounts on any job and nobody would be able to tell the difference between the newer characters and my old character if they didn't already know me.

You are cheating the second time around because you didn't show the same praise-worthy persistence and force of will that comes with leveling a job as you did the first time. Just because you earned exp on job X on character x the first time, doesn't mean you didn't cave in and cheat on character Y on job X, y, or z the second time.

Again, walking across the United States is an accompishment the first time and every time thereafter the same. Flying across the United States the first time, second time, or any time thereafter doesn't mean you're not cheating the accomplishment of "walking across the United States" even if you've done it once already. Accomplishments are not about the video game character that the person plays, but the character of a human being who plays a game.

So no, you didn't evade the learning process the first time through. But on the second time and on, you deprived those who earned their levels honestly by your leeching, and mispresented your second job/character and on as having been leveled honestly, but were not. Were you the kind of person that went through trials once and went through them again? Or did you decide, "I got a Lu Shang's the first time manually, botting through it the second time should be just as much of an accomplishment." What are you trying to say about yourself?--by which I mean, oneself, not "you"
personally.

I am in no way misleading anybody I come into contact with.

I give you that you earned exp on one job, but you cheated on another. You represent yourself truly one time, and falsely the second. I've earned every level on every job on my main as well as my alt without exception. I have an alt, and I fought every mob and actively participated in a way specific to or supported by the job(s) of my alt, without all this FOV/GOV leeching nonsense. Cheating is Cheating! Now, I only use this to mean 1) I am not the hypocrite that you contend, and 2) as an example of earning one's levels each time vs. earning them the first time, and not the second.

If you did buy an account and leech on jobs you've already leveled previously--and I'm only presenting this hypothetically--then you earned the exp on your first account, and you did not on the second. There's so little difference between the leeching and RMTing that they are as negligable. People should earn levels, or they should be done away with. Why earning levels is worthwhile I've already explained.

I have not deprived anybody of anything by leeching my alts.

It's not enough to say "I'm not depriving anyong of anything." You have to give examples proving that leeching doesn't deprive anyone of anything on your alts. Otherwise, I could just say "Leeching is bad, thread over." But I haven't. I've said exactly why leeching is cheating.

I've yet to see an irrefutable retort from you or anyone else as to how or why it doesn't. If it's your positition that it doesn't, you have to say why.

I am not evading learning any skill or game mechanic that I don't already know, despite having leveled many jobs recently that I had never played past level 37 before.

Ok, here you're saying that cheating isn't evasive because you learned it early the first time, so you shouldn't have to shortcut the exactly the same thing on a second characters. This is an admirable retort, even if it doesn't quite hit the mark. My rebuttal is that just because you did standard parties from 30 to 69 and particpated actively from say 70 to 90 in Abyssea on Character A on job X doesn't mean you didn't evade the same process if you leeched from 30 to 90 on Character B on job X the second time. There's more to evasion as a form of cheating than learning how to play. There's evading the determination and competence each time that the accomplishment of leveling entails.

I make no claims when I do join events as to how I leveled my characters or how skilled I am at playing them. In fact, the onus is on the people playing with me to not make unfounded assumptions about me based on their opinions. Nobody is being dishonest about it. Nobody is being mislead except for people who choose to walk around with blinders on. Abyssea has been around for some time now, and before that there were AB parties. It's safe to assume that a large portion of the population has 'leeched' one or more of the jobs that they play on.

From your verbal stumbling about, I can only guess that what you mean is that that the onus is on me to prove that you based upon your skills, you haven't earned your levels and therefore you've leeched?

If I invite someone that's 90, am I getting someone that can accurately and with great force attack high level monster, or someone who has no combat skills because of leeching or AFB? I've been aware of the sad existance of AFB for quite some time now. I know all too well that Abyssea leeching has been allowed for far too long. But that doesn't mean that I can not, should not, and do not expect that when I invite a level 90 that they can peform at the end game level.

Or are you really saying that one cannot expect quality players because of Abyssea leeching, and that it is a good thing? Are you suggesting that because of Astral Flow Burn and Abyssea leeching that I cannot assume that people don't know what they're doing? Are you sure you're really want to assert this? The only thing that's becoming clearer to me is that if you favor leeching, don't argue for it, you'll only hurt your cause.

Nobody is evading the skills you learn during traditional experience parties because quite frankly you don't learn much of anything by fighting a few select monsters over and over again for weeks or months.

Yeah, you learn the fundamentals of FFXI going AFK and watching reality tv eating vienna sausages from a can while looking to the horizon thinking one day you'll get your GED and everything will be ok, if only you could make the distinction between 3's, M's, W's, and E's.

I know somebody who has played PLD since at least 2006, who has completed an Aegis, who has been tanking in an HNM ls for three years. He leveled his PLD in traditional experience parties. This player joins events with the express intention of being main tank, many times suggesting party set ups that make him the sole tank. Despite having proper buffs, proper support, and good party set ups, this player cannot maintain shadows, keep hate, control a mob, manage his MP pool, or generally do what a PLD tank is supposed to be able to do, especially after 5 years of playing it.

Isn't that misleading? And doesn't misleading = cheating by definition? Despite him playing PLD the way he plays PLD, despite SE 'legitimizing' his play style, he has mislead many, many groups into thinking he can do something that he is incapable of doing.

Isn't that dishonest? And doesn't dishonest = cheating by definition? He claims to have skills that he learned while leveling his job and tanking HNMs, but is incapable of implementing these skills.

YES! This is a very good rebuttal. It's logical, non-abrasive, and impersonal. It's well
written without being arrogant or dismissive; it directly and accuratly takes my own suppositions, and then turns them against me, but without it being about me in a personal way. It has a premise, and then comes to a logical conclusion based upon a specific example. Likes this.

But not irrefutable.

Chest leeching and do-nothing leeching cannot and will not make someone get better at their job as they level up, be it Paladin or any other job. It is not supposed to teach you how to play your job. It's just teaches you that you can get to 90 if you have friends that are willing to tolerate someone who's good for little or nothing, and just don't expect much from their friends, whom they should expect the most of. I myself, and I'm sure many others have well, have known Paladins that have full MP and will not cure themselves at all, and then yell at the healer for letting them die, when the healer was really just trying to teach them a lesson. Let me put it to you this way. If I say, "I'm going to punch you in the face kinda slowly with my right hand so you should block with your left in exactly 3 seconds", and you don't, and we do this ten times, and you have a black eye, a broken nose, and 2 cracked teeth, does this mean that the learning process has failed you, or you've failed the process?

Allow me to reference an old joke as an analogy. Know what you call someone who scores a C- in Med School?:... Doctor. If they do that absolute minimum to make it through, and don't really have a firm grasp on what they're doing, than even simple procedures that are supposed to be painless can be torture to their patience. It doesn't mean that med school fails, it just means they're stupid (the would be doctor). Now, someone can have an MD, it's supposed to mean they are competent, but that doesn't stop the rate of malpractice suits. So, if someone says they're an MD, and should therefore be able to do something, which they really should, but in actuallity cannot, does in fact make them misleading and dishonest. Incidentally, the fact that both your tank story and mine are bad enough. The fact that the doctor story is true is worse!

Now, let me tie the analogy to the tank situation. Traditional 6 man parties or 18 man alliances teach the same fundamentals to those who actively take part in the battle in a way specific to or supported by the job. Whether they've learned from those fundamentals are quite something else. Someone volenteering for or accepting tank responsiblities because they're passing themselves off as competent because they've attained max level from non-cheating means remains fraudulent, cheating and dishonest. In other words, leeching never teaches. Leveling does neccessarally mean you've learned, it means you are supposed to have learned.

[Kimble]

So wait, I leveled WHM on my main the first time, way before TOAU, and now I burned my alts WHM to 90, therafore, im still a cheater and dont know how to play WHM on my mule? Or if I use my mule to get into a shout group and tell people I know how to play WHM, im lying to people?

[Chocobits]

Panthera secretly agrees with everything I have said, which is why he doesn't refute it and is blatantly ignoring me.

Panthera is also against the level requirement increase and in favor of Abyssea leeching, which is evident by his complete refusal to offer rebuttal.

So now that we have established Panthera is a keywhoring mofo like the rest of us, does that still leave anyone in Akujima's camp?