Common Courtesy

[Arcon]

I'm not sure if I fully understand what you said, but if I got this right, the deal was that you could lot BB items in return for them lotting the shank?

[Linh]

I'm not sure if I fully understand what you said, but if I got this right, the deal was that you could lot BB items in return for them lotting the shank?

Yes, and when it was down to the last orb (mine) no Tongue had dropped, so I asked "So if the TONGUE still doesnt drop, I get to keep shank right? Since it is MY orb."

"No, the deal was for a CHANCE to lot the TONGUE on our orbs in return for your shank. Not for the item itself. You misunderstood."

[Arcon]

Yes, and when it was down to the last orb (mine) no Tongue had dropped, so I asked "So if the TONGUE still doesnt drop, I get to keep shank right? Since it is MY orb."

"No, the deal was for a CHANCE to lot the TONGUE on our orbs in return for your shank. Not for the item itself. You misunderstood."

Sorry then, but I'll have to side with them. That's actually a common occurence, and it seems logical to me. If you think about it, they put their own time into helping you kill it, the fact that it's only a chance at the item is irrelevant, because that's what it always is, it's a calculated risk. If you put yourself in their shoes, it's just the same thing, they were expecting to get a chance at a shank, that's why they agreed to team up with you. However, if you now say they can only have it if the tongue doesn't drop, that lowers their chance at a shank to 25% of that what it would normally be, so one quarter the chance they previously had. That is pretty significant, they may not have agreed to this in the first place.

Imo it can't just be written off as a lack of common courtesy, because it would be a significant loss on their part. As I said, this is a quite commonplace deal, trade the chance at some items for a chance at others, regardless of the outcome, and imo it's perfectly fair like that.

The one thing I've noticed, over and over in this game over the last 7 years or so, is that many people will bend over backwards to help strangers out, provided they don't stand to gain anything at all from it. Throw in the opportunity for personal gain in the process though, and those same players become the most selfish, unreasonable people imaginable.

I don't know where you made that observation, but it seems you're not anywhere near where I've been.

Me and most people I know often help random strangers with anything, often even refusing rewards. Maybe you confuse it with something else, I had this happen once on a Yaanei shout. Someone asked for help, said he didn't want any drops. So I invite him and say we're ready to go, and after a while it was dead, I personally got red and blue and kept myself alive while he stood and watched, Aias Bonnet dropped. He got win, Atma and then wanted to lot still. I told him he said he didn't want any items, to which he countered "but I was here too, it's only fair". So I let him have it and warped.

Maybe the thing about an "opportunity for personal gain" is because it's something annoying and tedious, and you wouldn't do it normally, especially when there's plenty of other people who would. So if someone tells you you can have some form of a reward (items, gil, whatever) which you actually want, and that convinces you to go help them, then you are entitled to it. There's nothing selfish about it, you made a deal, both sides are supposed to keep up their part.

[Linh]

Imo it can't just be written off as a lack of common courtesy, because it would be a significant loss on their part. As I said, this is a quite commonplace deal, trade the chance at some items for a chance at others, regardless of the outcome, and imo it's perfectly fair like that.

It is a lack of courtesy cuz they preyed on my naivety by pulling this Confidence Man tactic.

And this was a "YOYD" run. How is it a significant loss for them? It would've been a enormous loss for me whose only reason for going there was the the Behemoth Tongue. If the tongue had not dropped on my orb, I would've had to given my Shank to them and receive nothing from a "YOYD" run.

"Nothing from a YOYD run."

Cuz the only worthwhile drops from Horns of War is either Tongue, or Shank for another chance at Tongue.

[Meyi]

What server calls it shank? We call it loot.

Anyway, sounds kind of greedy to me. I can understand where you're coming from, but from a third person's point of view, it does seem greedy. Wanting BB item plus all of your items.

[Linh]

What server calls it shank? We call it loot.

Anyway, sounds kind of greedy to me. I can understand where you're coming from, but from a third person's point of view, it does seem greedy. Wanting BB item plus all of your items.

no no no, it is an actual item "Beastly Shank", used to force spawn Behemoth.

If my orb had dropped a BB item, I would've gladly given them my "Beastly Shank" since I don't care for D. Ring at this point.

But if the BB item DIDN'T drop, I would've wanted to keep "Beastly Shank" to force spawn Behemoth, get his "Savory Shank" and force spawn "King Behemoth" for a chance at Tongue again.

SE: "You didn't get a Behemoth Tongue from this BCNM? Here take this Beastly Shank and kill 2 more NMs for another chance at it!"

[Zyeriis]

He's not even listening is he?

[Runespider]

Isnt this a game built around common courtesy though?

You try to do an NM, others are already there. Both groups take turns.

People generally take turns cause they fear if they don't they will get outclaimed out the wazoo, if they had a tool to insta claim and only they had it they wouldn't take turns at all, ever. I've been in positions where I asked to take turns when I arrive, they ignore or say no and I outclaim them for 4-5 in a row, then they get talkative. So no.

To OP, if you don't like it make your own group. He made the group, he makes the rules, if you don't like them don't join it.

[Arcon]

All I'm saying is I doubt he used you. If I made that kinda deal with you, I would expect the same thing as he did. It's not taking advantage of you, there's no naivety involved. As was stated before, you agreed to a certain rule, but then expected an exception to the rule.

"I lot this, you lot that."

That's all that has been said. There's no "unless" clause. There's no "but I didn't get anything so far, why shouldn't I lot now?", that's no argument at all. That would actually be unfair to him, because you had your fair chance. Sometimes you just lose, that's all there is to it. I don't believe you got tricked, it's simply a deal you agreed to (a very fair one, that is commonplace in FFXI), and as such I don't think it violates common courtesy.

[Linh]

All I'm saying is I doubt he used you. If I made that kinda deal with you, I would expect the same thing as he did. It's not taking advantage of you, there's no naivety involved. As was stated before, you agreed to a certain rule, but then expected an exception to the rule.

"I lot this, you lot that."

That's all that has been said. There's no "unless" clause. There's no "but I didn't get anything so far, why shouldn't I lot now?", that's no argument at all. That would actually be unfair to him, because you had your fair chance. Sometimes you just lose, that's all there is to it. I don't believe you got tricked, it's simply a deal you agreed to (a very fair one, that is commonplace in FFXI), and as such I don't think it violates common courtesy.

How do I lose everything in a YOYD run ;;

It's not like I live in a perpetual state of some movie where I'm expecting this type of action to be used. It's in retrospect that I see it. Like "hey, doesnt this sound familiar? Like those lawsuits of this or that which you see in random news articles?"