Common Courtesy

[Linh]

How much should it matter in this game?

A player named Pewpeww shouted for a YOYD "Horns of War". After I clarified that the Behemoth Tongue still drops in Horns of War per this post:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5782-Dev-1009-Force-Pop-HNM-s-FTW?p=80514#post80514

He sent me a tell saying that he'll give me a chance to lot BB item on both his and his LS-mate's orb if it dropped.

When it was my turn (3rd/last) the Tongue still had not dropped. I asked if I still get to keep my shank if my orb didn't drop Tongue. He said that wasn't part of the deal I made, that it wasn't his fault I misinterpret the deal.

"The deal was not for the BB item itself, but the chance for you to lot it if it drops on our orb. Even if it doesn't drop on your orb, we still get your shank. You misinterpret the deal, not our fault."

Is this what you call a "Confidence Man Tactic"? Cuz through the "fine print/contract" he is right, but not through the "General Perception" or "Common Courtesy" way.

[Zyeriis]

You misunderstood, not his fault. Always get clarification before signing up, never make assumptions.

[Linh]

Isnt this a game built around common courtesy though?

You try to do an NM, others are already there. Both groups take turns.

[Zyeriis]

Isnt this a game built around common courtesy though?

You try to do an NM, others are already there. Both groups take turns.

Not a good comparison (also, not everyone waits their turn like you would hope). He said he'd give you a chance not that if it dropped that you could keep it without being lotted against. If anything, he gave you a concession, you merely misunderstood the concession. By agreeing to that concession, you agreed to let other people, also have that concession, should the item have dropped on your orb. What he did was common courtesy.

Side Note: Not sure what you mean by "your shank". I can only make the assumption that it was referring to them getting everything else that drops on your orb. If that's the case, you made a bad deal and shouldn't have used your orb. You will need to clarify this before continuing.

[Linh]

Not a good comparison (also, not everyone waits their turn like you would hope). He said he'd give you a chance not that if it dropped that you could keep it without being lotted against. If anything, he gave you a concession, you merely misunderstood the concession. By agreeing to that concession, you agreed to let other people, also have that concession, should the item have dropped on your orb. What he did was common courtesy.

I don't see how it's common courtesy to "sign a contract to willingly give away stuff even if the item I want doesn't drop". It's a "Confidence Man Tactic"! "You are stupid and naive, we took advantage of that." How is that common courtesy?

Plus, the shout was clearly for a "YOYD" run.

Side Note: Not sure what you mean by "your shank". I can only make the assumption that it was referring to them getting everything else that drops on your orb. If that's the case, you made a bad deal and shouldn't have used your orb. You will need to clarify this before continuing.

I did not trade my orb at all when I was told this. and the shank is the "Beastly Shank" used to force pop Behemoth in "Behemoth's Dominion".

[Arcon]

I'm not sure if I fully understand what you said, but if I got this right, the deal was that you could lot BB items in return for them lotting the shank?

[lowkey]

Isnt this a game built around common courtesy though?

Yes, but only up to the point where it isn't. Like when it becomes inconvenient. Pretty much like real life.

The one thing I've noticed, over and over in this game over the last 7 years or so, is that many people will bend over backwards to help strangers out, provided they don't stand to gain anything at all from it. Throw in the opportunity for personal gain in the process though, and those same players become the most selfish, unreasonable people imaginable.

[Linh]

I'm not sure if I fully understand what you said, but if I got this right, the deal was that you could lot BB items in return for them lotting the shank?

Yes, and when it was down to the last orb (mine) no Tongue had dropped, so I asked "So if the TONGUE still doesnt drop, I get to keep shank right? Since it is MY orb."

"No, the deal was for a CHANCE to lot the TONGUE on our orbs in return for your shank. Not for the item itself. You misunderstood."

[Arcon]

Yes, and when it was down to the last orb (mine) no Tongue had dropped, so I asked "So if the TONGUE still doesnt drop, I get to keep shank right? Since it is MY orb."

"No, the deal was for a CHANCE to lot the TONGUE on our orbs in return for your shank. Not for the item itself. You misunderstood."

Sorry then, but I'll have to side with them. That's actually a common occurence, and it seems logical to me. If you think about it, they put their own time into helping you kill it, the fact that it's only a chance at the item is irrelevant, because that's what it always is, it's a calculated risk. If you put yourself in their shoes, it's just the same thing, they were expecting to get a chance at a shank, that's why they agreed to team up with you. However, if you now say they can only have it if the tongue doesn't drop, that lowers their chance at a shank to 25% of that what it would normally be, so one quarter the chance they previously had. That is pretty significant, they may not have agreed to this in the first place.

Imo it can't just be written off as a lack of common courtesy, because it would be a significant loss on their part. As I said, this is a quite commonplace deal, trade the chance at some items for a chance at others, regardless of the outcome, and imo it's perfectly fair like that.

The one thing I've noticed, over and over in this game over the last 7 years or so, is that many people will bend over backwards to help strangers out, provided they don't stand to gain anything at all from it. Throw in the opportunity for personal gain in the process though, and those same players become the most selfish, unreasonable people imaginable.

I don't know where you made that observation, but it seems you're not anywhere near where I've been.

Me and most people I know often help random strangers with anything, often even refusing rewards. Maybe you confuse it with something else, I had this happen once on a Yaanei shout. Someone asked for help, said he didn't want any drops. So I invite him and say we're ready to go, and after a while it was dead, I personally got red and blue and kept myself alive while he stood and watched, Aias Bonnet dropped. He got win, Atma and then wanted to lot still. I told him he said he didn't want any items, to which he countered "but I was here too, it's only fair". So I let him have it and warped.

Maybe the thing about an "opportunity for personal gain" is because it's something annoying and tedious, and you wouldn't do it normally, especially when there's plenty of other people who would. So if someone tells you you can have some form of a reward (items, gil, whatever) which you actually want, and that convinces you to go help them, then you are entitled to it. There's nothing selfish about it, you made a deal, both sides are supposed to keep up their part.

[Zyeriis]

I don't see how it's common courtesy to "sign a contract to willingly give away stuff even if the item I want doesn't drop". It's a "Confidence Man Tactic"! "You are stupid and naive, we took advantage of that." How is that common courtesy?

Plus, the shout was clearly for a "YOYD" run.



I did not trade my orb at all when I was told this. and the shank is the "Beastly Shank" used to force pop Behemoth in "Behemoth's Dominion".

I don't think your following me here. The shout was YOYD, you asked for something that went against that, and he said yes (this is a concession as it broke the pre-established rule, the very same rule you are arguing that would've prevented you from making the deal in the first place). The deal, from what I read, was that they removed the YOYD rule from one specific item, that item being the Tongue. Not that it matters, but you didn't make mention of the shank in your line about the tell you sent him. I am led to believe that the deal you made to allow the exception to the YOYD pre-established rule regarding the Tongue was agreed upon under the condition that the same be done for the Shank, thus adding another exception to the rule (the shank). Meaning, had the shank dropped on one of their orbs, you would've been able to lot it as well.

As you didn't ask specifically whether or not you would be the only one allowed to lot the Tongue (regardless of whether other people could lot the shank) before-hand, what occurred was in no-way his fault. He said what he meant, you made an assumption. In the end, you didn't lose anything, other than the time it took to do the first two runs, you should consider yourself lucky for not losing anything during such a misunderstanding. Next time, ask for specific clarification before joining. Think of it as common courtesy toward yourself. (Common courtesy doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the person you are making the deal with to make absolutely sure you know what said deal is, if not asked for clarification, which tbh in this case, he did when he said "chance to lot".)

Edit: You also tried to change the deal right before your orb, which honestly, is pretty rude and no one would ever agree to that. If anything, you were the one trying to break the deal, AFTER they had used their orbs, which, let's face it, is the exact opposite of common courtesy.