Dual weild

[Karbuncle]

Counterstance is actually incredibly useful. I'll "Do it" for Alaik. The Ability that while creating a defense that allows you to take 0 Damage and in turn INFLICT the enemy with some pretty decent damage, drastically increasing your DPS as ~80% of the Enemys attacks become your attacks.

Yes Utsusemi Is amazing, But Alaik is right, Its not (RIGHT NOW! Not Post-Abyssea!) the same age where MP Was Gold and everyone needed to Keep up shadows/etc. Counterstance is an amazing tool for jobs that do-not rely on Evasion. Key words there. (Jobs that don't rely on Evasion)

That being said, on THF, the Ability is far less useful than on MNK, as THF have super-high EVA, So they are unlikely to be hit more than ~20% of the time (I think thats EVA cap?). Meaning you'll counter far less attacks, It'll be less on your DPS than a MNK would gain from it, by -alot-. But it's still there however.

When it comes down to it i think /NIN will win until THF Gets Dual Wield III or higher, After that its really a toss up depending on what your fighting, and where it is. If you ever do Inside abyssea content 95+ when THF is likely to get Dual Wield III, /MNK will outperform /NIN in everyway. Your WHM will never run out of MP, and baring the mob you're fighting, you should never be one-shotted either. /MNK's "Defensive" Ability doesn't rely on reducing your DPS (Shadow Casting) and instead only servers to INCREASE your DPS.

Then Again, NIN/MNK would probably be better than NIN/anything if you're Duoing a mob with a WHM. You won't need the extra Survivability from /DNC, and NIN's have less EVA than THF, while they can still cap EVA on a lot of mobs, They fall behind on some bigger game. making /MNK+Counter-stance more viable. Assuming the mob doesn't have a TP move that could potentially 1-shot you (not many do, Mind you).

Is really is complicated, but TL;DR I think right now THF/NIN is winning, If/When THF gets Dual wield III /MNK will be a better Subjob for Inside-Abyssea Activities (when duoing with a WHM, or tanking with WHM in group). When we move out of Abyssea, Not so much. (which will happen).

[Alaik]

^^^^^^ This.

EDIT: Thank you Karbuncle for taking the time to explain it further.

[scaevola]

Wow, incredible.

Counterstance is brokenly overpowered. Yes. This is what I meant when I said it was broken.

Take 15 seconds to read what I what I posted and explain to me how anything I said could be understood as Counterstance being weak.


I passingly advocated /MNK novelty tanking for mobs on which shadows are by-design impractical, though unless it's something that just has a straight-up silence aura /BLU is probably better.

EDIT: If you're zeroing in on the part where I said "MNKs get screwed", that was pretty obviously in reference to a lack of +evasion on their gear compared to NIN, THF, or DNC (they're out 20 evasion and 9 agi right out of the gate for not being able to DW); it's a testament to how broken Counterstance really is that MNK is considered a tank at all.

[Karbuncle]

Wow, incredible.

Counterstance is brokenly overpowered. Yes. This is what I meant when I said it was broken.

Take 15 seconds to read what I what I posted and explain to me how anything I said could be understood as Counterstance being weak.


I passingly advocated /MNK novelty tanking for mobs on which shadows are by-design impractical, though unless it's something that just has a straight-up silence aura /BLU is probably better.

I'm working off reading Alaik's Posts. If his responses don't reflect your argument you can ignore my response as I would be working from an Inaccurate representation of your thoughts.

Sarcasm and berating is not required nor needed.

Thank you and good Day!

[Laphine]

lol some misunderstanding. When i replied i only kept "horrible design" in my mind and not the whole context you used it hehe. It's all Alaik's fault!!

[Karbuncle]

Indubitably my good Laphine, Indubitably.

[Alaik]

Counterstance a horrible ability?

I really don't know what to say....

Yes, an ability that stops half of all incoming hits in a game with a spell like Utsusemi available to all classes via easy customization is terrible design.

Yes when asked, "Counterstance is a horrible ability?", also the way you're comparing it to utsusemi (One of the ackowledged best forms of damage mitagation in the game) also implies it's terrible in comparison. It would be like someone saying, "Cars being able to take you 360 miles in 6 hours when a jet can take you 2,000 miles is terrible design." did you flat out say cars are terrible? No, but it's sure implied.

counterstance is a terribly-designed ability and while we're at it H2H damage calculation is pretty messed up, too, but i have never claimed every other job in the game is not pretty bad compared to MNK

Again, "While we're at it" implying both are in similar states in your opinion and then stating, "Not that I'm saying others jobs have it better." which, "while we're at it", double negatives are typically a no-no.

Of course that's based off the fact I have never heard someone say, "Man, having a million dollars is so great, not that I never said that other income classes don't have it worse than them."

Yeah, but if everyone thought it meant one thing, it's their fault, not your poor wording choice.

EDIT: Karbuncle, lay off my word. I am the only one allowed to say "Indubitably", and am in fact required to say it 5 times per sentence. Read ffxiah!

[Karbuncle]

Yes when asked, "Counterstance is a horrible ability?", also the way you're comparing it to utsusemi (One of the ackowledged best forms of damage mitagation in the game) also implies it's terrible in comparison. It would be like someone saying, "Cars being able to take you 360 miles in 6 hours when a jet can take you 2,000 miles is terrible design." did you flat out say cars are terrible? No, but it's sure implied.





Again, "While we're at it" implying both are in similar states in your opinion and then stating, "Not that I'm saying others jobs have it better." which, "while we're at it", double negatives are typically a no-no.

Of course that's based off the fact I have never heard someone say, "Man, having a million dollars is so great, not that I never said that other income classes don't have it worse than them."

Yeah, but if everyone thought it meant one thing, it's their fault, not your poor wording choice.

EDIT: Karbuncle, lay off my word. I am the only one allowed to say "Indubitably", and am in fact required to say it 5 times per sentence. Read ffxiah!

Interesting.

So my Original post still applies!

WOO!

[scaevola]

Yes when asked, "Counterstance is a horrible ability?", also the way you're comparing it to utsusemi (One of the ackowledged best forms of damage mitagation in the game) also implies it's terrible in comparison. It would be like someone saying, "Cars being able to take you 360 miles in 6 hours when a jet can take you 2,000 miles is terrible design." did you flat out say cars are terrible? No, but it's sure implied.

The quote means Counterstance is made horribly overpowered by the existence of Utsusemi. Though certainly an open question, I think there's an argument to be made that Counterstance would be balanced and fine if Utsusemi did not allow MNK to basically ignore its pretty huge penalty. I am not evaluating the effectiveness of each against the other, at least not in that quote. There may be other ways to read it but given the context (especially the context to which you originally replied), none of them strike me as particularly reasonable.

Again, "While we're at it" implying both are in similar states in your opinion and then stating, "Not that I'm saying others jobs have it better." which, "while we're at it", double negatives are typically a no-no.

The strength of language lies in its versatility, and double negatives are sometimes useful as a rhetorical flourish. The person who told you they were bad was a 7th Grade English teacher who (apparently correctly) thought they were too subtle for you to handle.

Counterstance is broken, and the scaling of hand-to-hand damage calculation is also messed up. This does not mean that they are messed up in ways that are bad for the people who use them.

[Alaik]

Double negatives are nonstandard in most English speaking countries outside South America, actually. Unless you want to argue you meant double negatives in Afrikaans next.

Double negatives can denote one of two things: an inversion of the verb's original meaning. "I didn't do nothing" Not doing nothing = doing something.

Or in the rarer case, they are used (again, often in south american countries) to cause a weakened form of affirmation.

Either way it's not the way you applied it. But hey, you know rules of the English language the guys at Oxford don't is WAY more plausible than some guy back pedaling once Karbuncle dropped some knowledge on them.

Totally forgive me, I won't mention it again. It'll be out of sheer respect for you and your unseen knowledge of how people are supposed to use poor language the right way. Not because I think we're arguing in circles because someone can't say they were wrong.