Dual weild

[scaevola]

We have 2 jobs that make use of daggers to do their thing. Thf and dnc. Dnc is clearly a support role job. A support role that started getting too close to damage dealing role. What is thf? Certainly not a support job. A DD then? But why is it that thf is not on the same tier of the so called "big" ones? And more if dnc is support and thf is a DD, why is it that dnc can deal the same damage thf can? Makes no sense at all...

Define "tier". I generally do a bit less damage in Abyssea on THF than I do on my DNC but both completely destroy my 5-hit Hagun 2.0 SAM. The best DDs are the ones who benefit the most from RR and other crit Atma; to say that THF isn't among these is totally insane.

[Atomic_Skull]

Any way you cut it, unless the dual wield is higher than what /nin currently gives us, it's worthless because it's our end all subjob.

This is why I would have preferred a trait that reduces 1H weapon delay like Martial Arts does for H2H. Because it would still be useful while subbing NIN.

[Laphine]

Same tier (rank) of damage capability. The thf damage is still far from those that are considered heavy dds. This mostly means thf vs mnk or war by today standards.But i didn't mean to say we should be able to deal the exact same damage of those jobs. Instead i think there should be some kind of parameter which would define game balance.

On my previous post i used utility as the parameter and compared both dnc and thf. And then i threw the question which could also be read as: if dnc has more utility what is that thf can add to the table to balance that? Certainly not damage since both jobs are pretty much tied. One could say thf has TH. This doesn't make the job better tho, only necessary. And this is why that ppl with resources have a TH mule. It's a mule because it simply doesn't add much else. Many jobs are better at that other things we can offer.

If we think of war vs mnk it can be quite reasonable. Both can deal crazy damage. War can deal more tho, but it trades damage for an inability to survive. Meanwhile, mnk is undestructible. Of course, given some exaggeration, but still, this makes sense for me.

What i'd like to see on thf is a better mastery of a trait (be it damage, survivability, hate management) that's not related to treasure hunter. Otherwise the job will always be relegated to mules because the player really doesn't need to be active to set th.

[scaevola]

What i'd like to see on thf is a better mastery of a trait (be it damage, survivability, hate management) that's not related to treasure hunter. Otherwise the job will always be relegated to mules because the player really doesn't need to be active to set th.

Oh, you mean like having close to a flat 20% greater chance to dodge an attack than the next most evasive job, or the ability to plant hate from a large attack on another player, or even take hate from the same and redirect it to itself? And perhaps having these advantages ON TOP of Treasure Hunter, a totally unique advantage that by its mere existence makes THF a necessity?

Yes, I suppose that would compensate THF for not having the undisputed highest damage output in the game.

(ps complaining that you can't outdamage a WAR or MNK is pretty silly when there are seventeen other jobs that can't outdamage WARs or MNKs either)

if dnc has more utility what is that thf can add to the table to balance that? Certainly not damage since both jobs are pretty much tied. One could say thf has TH. This doesn't make the job better tho, only necessary

DNC does the damage it is capable of doing by shutting off all utility other than Haste Samba. A DNC that cures is a DNC that is not using Saber Dance (to say nothing of TP spent), and is not at all competitive with a THF's damage; if you're proceeding from the assumption that DNC and THF are neck-and-neck damage-wise, then you have to basically write off DNC's ability to heal something more than once every three minutes.

Lol look at me talking about making JAs be affected by haste. And of course, if this was the case, it would just add more balance issues. Maybe only a select few JAs could get this bonus? haha I know dncs would also love their big waltzes with lower delays.

There are a lot of jobs, DNC included, that are already very powerful thanks to their JAs; allowing their recasts to scale with Haste would be just dumb.

I guess my SAM/DRG would be happy...?


(pps JA recasts reduced by haste, and suddenly THFs start crying about needing to sub NIN all the time because it turns out THF/COR with 30 second QD cooldowns is pretty loller)

[Alaik]

A flat 20% better evade rate? Dude, you really have to look up how evasion works. There's an evade cap and THF and DNC both hit it on most NMs easily. Trick Attack doesn't do anything after 20 seconds if your DD/tanks are any good cause of hate caps, look those up as well; at that point trick attack is just a dmg boosting ability. !!! > TH on 95% of all items in abyssea and outside isn't exactly important for most players.

THF and DNC are neck in neck dmg wise when DNC isn't giving up their utility, if they go balls to the wall they pull ahead. The exception being when twashtar comes into play, DNC can't utilize that NEAR as well as THF can.

[scaevola]

I was responding to Laphine pointing out that THF already does what he proposed they ought to do. Both DNC and THF can cap evasion against any Abyssea NM but THF's higher native evasion means DNC has to give up more gear slots to do it. The enmity cap problem is real but I believe overstated, since if the tank stays ahead of everybody else (perhaps with the assistance of TA!) the vast majority of NMs are going to be dead or close to it before DDs start capping; people assume it's an oversight, but I believe it's actually an intended penalty for low-manning.

THF does more damage than DNC if DNC is healing because DNC healing is an all-or-nothing proposition: either your group is counting on you to heal so you're saving TP for when you need it rather than spamming WSes, or they don't so you aren't. You are using Saber Dance furtively, if at all. Two CW3s for a pathetic 1200 or so healed is the equivalent of a 2k+ weapon skill for either of them. I really don't understand how one could come to a different conclusion.

[Laphine]

Oh, you mean like having close to a flat 20% greater chance to dodge an attack than the next most evasive job, or the ability to plant hate from a large attack on another player, or even take hate from the same and redirect it to itself? And perhaps having these advantages ON TOP of Treasure Hunter, a totally unique advantage that by its mere existence makes THF a necessity?

Yes, I suppose that would compensate THF for not having the undisputed highest damage output in the game.

Yep. We sure can do a lot of stuff, but none of them good enough (except THing), and every single one of these things we can do is outshined by THing. No one needs us because we evade better, plant hate, steal hate or debuff with xbow (laughable as it is).

TH does make us necessary, a necessary burden...and since the trait is easily activated by a simple /ra, most advanced groups got a TH mule that does nothing but a ranged attack and sits there. The last update was indeed positive on this aspect, and now we get more TH boosts by having an active thf. Whether these boosts are even worth a damn or not is another topic, and probably, most times they aren't. We then fall back to being a burden, and we can even add the tp feeding machine on top as condiment.

The other thing i can say we are good at is evading. Yeah, i won't deny that, but the real problem is that everyone can do it too. Every job in the game can have capped evasion against a number of mobs. Some (like thf) can cap on a wider range. But i can't really call ourselves masters of evasion while we are still limited to the 80% cap like everyone else. This is the reason why i liked ideas like having our very own anticipation/counter concept ja, by which we could dodge attacks randomly and break this 80% cap.

(ps complaining that you can't outdamage a WAR or MNK is pretty silly when there are seventeen other jobs that can't outdamage WARs or MNKs either)

Did i ever?

I only said we needed to set a parameter to compare balance between jobs. War for one exists to deal damage, doesn't add anything but damage, and so of course, it deserves to be the best dd there is. Now mnk has both great damage and survivability, i would call it unfair that mnk should be able to deal more damage than war.

We think of dnc vs thf and mnk vs thf too. In one side we have a job that's much better support than thf and does comparable damage (even if less, not so much less), and in the other side we have a job that does much more damage and have comparable (if not better) survivability. Where do we shine? Oh, there is the TH coin. But the problem is that it really doesn't take an actual player to throw this coin.

DNC does the damage it is capable of doing by shutting off all utility other than Haste Samba. A DNC that cures is a DNC that is not using Saber Dance (to say nothing of TP spent), and is not at all competitive with a THF's damage; if you're proceeding from the assumption that DNC and THF are neck-and-neck damage-wise, then you have to basically write off DNC's ability to heal something more than once every three minutes.

Not really. Dnc doesn't need saber dance to actually be able to beat a thf. It does, however, need to use JAs sparingly.

If a dnc does nothing but keep haste samba up, it will outdamage a thf. But such a dancer doesn't really exist, and saber dance becomes necessary to counter the dps loss of ja spam.

[scaevola]

Yep. We sure can do a lot of stuff, but none of them good enough (except THing), and every single one of these things we can do is outshined by THing. No one needs us because we evade better, plant hate, steal hate or debuff with xbow (laughable as it is).

TH does make us necessary, a necessary burden...and since the trait is easily activated by a simple /ra, most advanced groups got a TH mule that does nothing but a ranged attack and sits there. The last update was indeed positive on this aspect, and now we get more TH boosts by having an active thf. Whether these boosts are even worth a damn or not is another topic, and probably, most times they aren't. We then fall back to being a burden, and we can even add the tp feeding machine on top as condiment.

Even if you were right, which you aren't because people use THF as a DD-centric tank all the time, there are 20 jobs in this game; everyone can be rendered down to a one-trick pony when you start putting them in groups. Do you think White Mages get the short end of the stick by being sought after because of their healing and not, uh, Hexastrike or Banish?

The best thing about FFXI, literally the best thing, is the ability to change jobs freely. If the primary unique benefit of the job you have chosen is insufficient for your needs, you can and should play another job, and the game encourages you to do so.

The other thing i can say we are good at is evading. Yeah, i won't deny that, but the real problem is that everyone can do it too. Every job in the game can have capped evasion against a number of mobs. Some (like thf) can cap on a wider range. But i can't really call ourselves masters of evasion while we are still limited to the 80% cap like everyone else. This is the reason why i liked ideas like having our very own anticipation/counter concept ja, by which we could dodge attacks randomly and break this 80% cap.

You can get to that 80% cap through the sacrifice of fewer gear slots than other jobs. DNC does okay, granted, but MNK is pretty screwed IIRC.

I only said we needed to set a parameter to compare balance between jobs. War for one exists to deal damage, doesn't add anything but damage, and so of course, it deserves to be the best dd there is. Now mnk has both great damage and survivability, i would call it unfair that mnk should be able to deal more damage than war.

I would disagree with the idea of WAR not having utility; WAR is, after all, the best Red !! proccer in the game, and while that might strike you as kind of beside the point, I'd say there are two reasons why it's relevant:

1) WAR is, by design, the "weapon master" class with the broadest selection of options, so it seems totally intended to me that a mechanic designed to encourage the use of multiple weapon types would be made with WAR in mind, and

2) the fact that this advantage is Abyssea-only is important for this discussion because while I concede DNC's damage in Abyssea might be a bit higher than it really needs to be, I assure you this is only because of its incredible Atma synergy. Dagger damage is still quite low outside and we don't get a better option than Dancing Edge. You wouldn't think the grass was so green on this side of the fence without Razed Ruins.

We think of dnc vs thf and mnk vs thf too. In one side we have a job that's much better support than thf and does comparable damage (even if less, not so much less), and in the other side we have a job that does much more damage and have comparable (if not better) survivability.

Counterstance has always been a horribly-designed ability. Funny how nobody complained about it when the game was still kind of hard.

Where do we shine? Oh, there is the TH coin. But the problem is that it really doesn't take an actual player to throw this coin.

This might hold water, except:

1) the much-needed TH proc mechanic, which added a little bit of interactivity (giving groups an incentive to find a way for the THF to TP on things you wouldn't normally TP on)

2) FFXI is, as a whole, pretty simplistic in terms of controls and activity; how are you going to say THF's best advantage is boring to use when DNC and MNK's best advantages, Haste Samba and Counterstance, are just as passive?

Not really. Dnc doesn't need saber dance to actually be able to beat a thf. It does, however, need to use JAs sparingly.

If a dnc does nothing but keep haste samba up, it will outdamage a thf. But such a dancer doesn't really exist, and saber dance becomes necessary to counter the dps loss of ja spam.

No, a DDing DNC keeps Saber Dance up because healing at all is a huge damage loss, so nothing is lost by locking out abilities you weren't going to use anyway.

Using JAs "sparingly" is a recipe for failure on any DD. That's pretty much why people stopped making skillchains in 2005.

[Frost]

Idk, I seem to have no issue keeping up DD wise with most of the "Heavy Hitters". Granted, as I said earlier my Dnc seems to do even better. Personally I'd put thief in that "Top Tier" slot, but I have seen way too many pink thieves that I cannot. One apple spoiling the bunch is one thing, but jeez... There's a lot of rotten pink apples...

That being said... A "Dagger Mastery" of some sort would obviously be a nice addition. If anything just because we have NO alternative weapon. Most jobs have at least one other weapon only one tier down, but all of thief's are two tiers lower.

But what would it add? Accuracy? I don't have accuracy problems. Haste/Reduced delay like Martial arts? Maybe, but that's kinda the void Dual Wield fills (And if you ask me, any "One-Handed" weapon user should have this natively anyways)... Attack bonus? Possibly, I'd go so far to suggest a level of "Ignore Defense". Then there's things like Crit Attack Bonus, or Crit rate that could be added, etc.

What are thief's actual deficiencies though? What coudl the trait correct WITHOUT putting it so far ahead that balance would be upset. Especially when it comes to soloing.

[Laphine]

I for one believe our deficiency lies on sa/ta. Most changes proposed over here to these JAs would be quite significant too. Currently SA/TA adds a fixed amount of dps to our final dps, and if for example, this extra damage were to be more dynamic and able grow with our melee dps things will change quite a bit. Lol look at me talking about making JAs be affected by haste. And of course, if this was the case, it would just add more balance issues. Maybe only a select few JAs could get this bonus? haha I know dncs would also love their big waltzes with lower delays.

And i still love the idea of adding dex/agi bonus to the base ws damage lol. This would be an indirect increase to SA/TA damage because it would get multiplied by ftp. Say inside abyssea we solo a SA for 1250, and SARudras for 3500. With this little boost we would SARudras for a bit under 6k, not too shabby~.We would have no reason to stack SA with a multi hit ws too (due low ftp bonus), but that's something i can live with hehe.