Dual weild

[Arcon]

Mostly hat's true, and overall DNC would probably out-damage an equally geared THF. However, THF doesn't need SA/TA to deal good damage, I even dare to say in some situations they may not be worth using (other than to push the TH value).

With best TP gear, DNC gets ~20% faster attack speed than THF and reaches 100% TP about ~15% faster (assuming equal delay daggers, THF usually get a bit faster daggers, but DNC still wins in overall attacks/time).

And considering how self-sustaining DNC is, and durable, compared to THF, I really hope SE looks into it a bit more and adjusts it somehow, either upgrade THF or downgrade DNC. The only thing THF has going for it in the overall DD-tanking department is its native evasion, which does show a lot compared to DNC (30 difference, even if DNC has full Closed Position merits, up to 45 difference otherwise), which makes us more viable DDs when survival is a problem. Where DNC has to keeps casting shadows all the time or keep curing itself with its TP, THF doesn't even get hit. Also, THF has a few better evasion pieces than DNC, more than DNC has over THF (I'm looking at you, Charis Tights +2), although that's not too much of a difference, since only a few pieces can be worn over DNC to maintain high DD capabilities.

This allows some interesting solo strategies on certain mobs, especially in Abyssea. With some temporary meds THF can take down unexpectedly many NMs solo, only AoE happy mobs are a problem. Yet it still doesn't beat a DNC for overall DD-tanking. We still have our uses, but if there's an equally skilled DNC around, they will usually get the job done easier. Thankfully we have TH.

[Karbuncle]

Mostly hat's true, and overall DNC would probably out-damage an equally geared THF. However, THF doesn't need SA/TA to deal good damage, I even dare to say in some situations they may not be worth using (other than to push the TH value).

With best TP gear, DNC gets ~20% faster attack speed than THF and reaches 100% TP about ~15% faster (assuming equal delay daggers, THF usually get a bit faster daggers, but DNC still wins in overall attacks/time).

And considering how self-sustaining DNC is, and durable, compared to THF, I really hope SE looks into it a bit more and adjusts it somehow, either upgrade THF or downgrade DNC. The only thing THF has going for it in the overall DD-tanking department is its native evasion, which does show a lot compared to DNC (30 difference, even if DNC has full Closed Position merits, up to 45 difference otherwise), which makes us more viable DDs when survival is a problem. Where DNC has to keeps casting shadows all the time or keep curing itself with its TP, THF doesn't even get hit. Also, THF has a few better evasion pieces than DNC, more than DNC has over THF (I'm looking at you, Charis Tights +2), although that's not too much of a difference, since only a few pieces can be worn over DNC to maintain high DD capabilities.

This allows some interesting solo strategies on certain mobs, especially in Abyssea. With some temporary meds THF can take down unexpectedly many NMs solo, only AoE happy mobs are a problem. Yet it still doesn't beat a DNC for overall DD-tanking. We still have our uses, but if there's an equally skilled DNC around, they will usually get the job done easier. Thankfully we have TH.

THF can solo an amazing number of mobs. Just the other day i had a dream i Solo'd AV to about 25%, Then i kited it cause i got hit with Aeroga II (lol?) and only had 108 HP, and for some reason my Utsusemi: Ni timer was @ 24minutes:00seconds.

I love how absolutely insane dreams are.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnyway. On topic.

More so as an Elaboration, I heard an idea i liked, give THF a "Martial Arts" of Daggers. Would be a good start. And don't give it to DNC. Fk DNC.

I think something that needs to be done for THF too is access to more Job Abilities that actually work on the THF(While he tanks)! most of our new Job Abilities only effect non-tanks, or other party members (Accomp, Collab, Conspir). I always felt THF should have gotten Impetus personally... But I can't fret on that.

Why not give THF something in the lines of Restraint? Except, For each hit instead of increasing your WS Damage, Each hit would increase the Damage of SA or TA? A good Formula would be for each hit landed, Increases the DEX or AGI mod by an additional 0.5%, to a Maximum of 50%, so instead of adding 100% of your DEX to dmg, it would add 150%, same with TA.

Could also give THF Stances. I would love to see THF stances. One could really help their DD/Tank aspect, one could really help their Support/Hate-control Aspect. For instance, On stance could increase DD stats, and Lower SA recast to 30 seconds. While the other could increase...something I dunno, Ranged Accuracy/Attack? and lower Recast timers for Coll/Accomplice, and TA.

I'm just spitballing :\, I love THF and its really good as it is, Doesn't mean i wouldn't like to see new things moving forward

[Laphine]

Cool ideas Karbuncle, sa/ta one would be awesome!

Something interesting i thought of some time ago was a "dagger mastery". This trait would enhance our equipped daggers base damage based on our dex. 1 extra base damage with every idk, 30 dex, woudn't be so bad! Ok, maybe it's broken lol, but i don't care~

sa2/ta2 is another thing i thought of too. There would have no position requirements, but with a lower dex/agi mod and shared timers with sa/ta. I think a lower damage is a good trade for being able to use sa/ta solo hehe.

[Karbuncle]

Cool ideas Karbuncle, sa/ta one would be awesome!

Something interesting i thought of some time ago was a "dagger mastery". This trait would enhance our equipped daggers base damage based on our dex. 1 extra base damage with every idk, 30 dex, woudn't be so bad! Ok, maybe it's broken lol, but i don't care~

sa2/ta2 is another thing i thought of too. There would have no position requirements, but with a lower dex/agi mod and shared timers with sa/ta. I think a lower damage is a good trade for being able to use sa/ta solo hehe.

That second thing could just be a Job Trait, I think that would be a good idea.

but only for sneak Attack, If SA is used outside of its Designated area, it gets a 50% Penalty to damage, But still gets a damage boost. I wouldn't mind that.

Being able to SA>WS from the front, or if you're in a party that can't keep a mob still, and still get benefits of SA would be wonderful.

----

As for the Dagger mastery, 30DEX = 1 Base Damage wouldn't be too broken. Even in Abyssea my DEX is only about 200 (only i say, lol), which is only +6 Base damage, not very significant but enough. I would prefer a Delay Reduction though :P

[Atomic_Skull]

sa2/ta2 is another thing i thought of too. There would have no position requirements, but with a lower dex/agi mod and shared timers with sa/ta. I think a lower damage is a good trade for being able to use sa/ta solo hehe.

Ugh, please no. First of people don't see DPS only damage spikes and that would invite even more "lol THF" from the FFXI community.

Secondly, changing SA and TA to work from any position is just dumbing down the game.

[Karbuncle]

Ugh, please no. First of people don't see DPS only damage spikes and that would invite even more "lol THF" from the FFXI community.

Secondly, changing SA and TA to work from any position is just dumbing down the game.

Perhaps, At least he's not suggesting being able to SATA form anywhere with no penalty, Which would be worse. I think Allowing SA (maybe not TA) from any direction with a Penalty to Damage wouldn't be a horrible adjustment. It'd make at least 1 of our Worthless-while-solo-or-lowman Abilities slightly less so.

Maybe make it to where, From the back it deals normal 100%, from the Sides it deals 75%, From the front 50%. It wouldn't be that bad if combined with my idea earlier with the "Restraint" for SA/TA. It wouldn't be like this from level 1, Maybe make it a level 80+ Job Trait. not base from level 1.

I just don't like to see that nearly all of THF's job abilities being pointless If you're Lowmanning as the tank (Usually THF + WHM, or THF/etc) or Soloing. I mean, in terms of NMs.

Sneak Attack - impossible to use in Battle when solo/lowman (outside of a few NMs you can land sleep bolts on or those that you can hide from)
Trick Attack - Impossible to use in above situation, (perhaps you could coerce the mage to come into range for a while, Depends on the mob you're fighting)
Mug - Worthless Inside Abyssea
Steal/Despoil - Worthless on NMs, as it doesn't work. Baring Aura Steal (So this one gets half pass)
Col/Acomp - Rarely useful, But This is Useful
Flee - Well... If you need to run
Hide - Doesn't work on NMs
Feint - Less than useful these days (Unless fighting Indrik or a select few other super-high evasive mobs)
Assassin's Charge - This ones useful Solo
Conspirator - Useless Lowman (described above THF + WHM situation)

So out of all of THF's job abilities (2hour not counted for), we only have at best 2-3 That are useful in low-man (THF + WHM) or Solo Situations. I don't think theres a single other job in the game that has more than 80% of its Job abilities completely pointless when Soloing or low manning.

I just think this 1 change to SA would not be as catastrophically nerfing/dumbing down the game enough to make it not worth a thought-out implementation, as long as it was perhaps a Job Trait at higher levels (like Assassin came at level 60, Giving us the SA JT at 80 wouldn't break the game in my opinion).

Also as a final thought, I haven't heard LolTHF in a very long time unless its from some ignorant moron who just came back from the game from 2005. Even then it was useful for TH. Today THF is one of the better DD/Tanks, especially in Abyssea. While it wont do the damage of WAR or MNK, it can tank as good and keep TH on the mob. THF has come a long way :\. You shouldn't value the opinions of people who see spike damage over DPS as the end-all means of Damage output :P, those of us good players realize the value of Thieves!


Edit: I mean, Adding a job Trait that allows SA to work from more angles with a small nerf in Damage wouldn't be any more "Easy mode" than Impetus, Empyrean+2 Sets, Ukon's Furry, Victory smite, Capped Counter-rates, 3k+ HP, obtainable 100% Critical hit Rate, obtainable capped Critical hit Damage+%, etc etc that is the game inside Abyssea.

Edit2: I'm never good with words, So i hope you can at least understand the basics of what I'm trying to say here ...

[Eeek]

@Arcon:

It's (obviously) true that THF has the edge over DNC in terms of evasion. I've soloed and low-manned many NMs on both THF and DNC, and to be honest, THF doesn't "feel" like it has the superior evasion while in the field (although I'm sure a parser could show the difference). In fact, I have not used my evasion set on either job in a long time. One or two AGI/Evasion Kilas +2 is all that's needed for evasion.

In my experience, THF's survivability doesn't even remotely compare to DNC. I can't eyeball any real difference between the evasion rates of my THF and DNC, but if shit hits the fan, I'd prefer to be on DNC.

DNC can self-cure in an instant for over 1000HP. DNC can activate Fan Dance for incredible damage reduction, and this is especially nice if problematic TP moves ignore shadows. DNC can provoke an NM when hate is too loose. Provoke will never hold hate, but that's not the important part. Provoke allows the DNC to melee/WS the mob a few times, and that will help stabilize the fight. DNC can act decisively to regain control of a bad situation.

In an 'Oh Shit!' situation, THF's abilities are just too passive for my tastes. Perfect Dodge is near useless in bad situations. It only benefits the THF, and against problematic NMs, it's usually not physical damage that causes the problems. Accomplice/Collaborator is very nice, but the THFhas only one chance to Accomplice/Collaborator someone in the party. If they choose....poorly, then hate is still loose. TA is largely worthless in an ohshit situation with an NM running loose. What else is left? Try to land SA, melee the NM, and pray you take hate before all the mages die. Or you can Flee and laugh as everyone dies but you (or make yourself useful by kiting).

@Karbuncle

Even though DNC's 'stances' are amazingly good, I really dislike the limitations imposed when using them. If THF ever got stances, I'm afraid they'd come with deal-breaker limitations.

If anything, I'd like to see SE embrace and really ramp up THF's potential for dealing critical hit damage. I like the hate control tools added over the past year or two, but a DD must deal decent damage to be worthwhile. SE also needs to stop pussyfooting around and giving critical hit enhancements to jobs stronger than THF in an attempt to be inclusive. No. Stop that. SE needs to go balls out in making THF the king of critical hit damage.

Now, I'm not calling for SE to break THF; just to make THF competitive because we will be leaving Abyssea some time soon. RR/GH/Apoc 'fixes' THF, and SE should take some of the benefits from these atmas (more DEX, more AGI, more critical hits, more critical hit bonus damage, another tier of the Triple Attack job trait) and roll them into THF on a permanent basis. That being said, I have no idea how to math out appropriate bonuses to strengthen THF, but at the same time, keep from breaking THF.

[Laphine]

That idea came as an innovative way to increase our dps. SA/TA is still a very big chunk of our dps and increasing their overall use is a mean to increase our damage. Usually when i'm tanking i hardly use them, and this is really bad because they are an essential part of our play style.

I really don't mind that we need a tank to effectively use them, but being so, they are incredibly underwhelming as they are now. The way i see it we have 2 options: either decrease their damage and remove position requirements or increase their damage in some considerable way and keep the position requirements. My initial thought on removing position requirements was purely based on increasing our performance. I didn't want it just to make our job easier (how hard it is to line up anyway?).

So yeah, even though it would be nice to get more dual wield (and i do see DW3 being very much real otw to 99), this isn't going to change much. On innovative ways SE did give us crit attack bonus, which is completely synergic to thf game play. But then they went out and gave it to war and dnc as well. Sense much? Even worse, they went and gave crit attack bonus to a number of jobs thru af/items that puts our 8% in dust. I'm looking at war again (af feet), drg (af legs), nin (kamome), all of these giving +10% crit damage. Idk if there are any others, but this is completely unballanced imo.

Increasing sa/ta damage is something i would be very fond of. But not by the trashy amounts we have from both our af hands. It's got to be something meaningful! Something that would make ppl say: "ok, thf damage sucks solo, but it completely crushes things with a partner!".

lol just another something i just thought about which could help achieve that: placing SA/TA mods inside the ws calculations. Dex and agi would act as ws mods because they would also be multiplied by fTP. This way we would become epeen masters of the game, and it makes sense with our game play (that being based on oportunity attacks). Imagine a TARudras/Mercy for 5k outside abyss lol, talk about hate control! This would be a big game play change in a way too, we would probably become the only job that has to actually sit on tp to deal damage. How cool is that?! haha

Talking about reality though, i think the best JA we could get is that based seigan+third eye/perfect counter concept, which was also an idea thrown on these forums somewhere. DW3 + /war + something like that would make us very competitive. Without such JA we wouldn't have as many oportunities to use /war and things would just stay like they are now.

Anyway, don't mind me SE, gogo 5k TARudras outside Abyssea, (Yes, please.)!!!!!!

[scaevola]

For the record, wouldn't "optimal DNC" be a "Twashtar DNC"?

Yes, but Twashtar is substantially better for THF than DNC thanks to how Rudra's is designed. So there's that.

Notably, DNC gets a pretty solid response in the Double Attack Parazonium +2, but this is all beside the point because THF's damage is "balanced" around the assumption you'll be able to use SA and TA, which are undeniably very strong; if you increase THF's native TP damage through DW to the point where it's competitive with all the other MNK clones out there when they can't use SA or TA, they'd be totally unreal when they could.

THF doesn't need an increase in raw damage so much as it needs abilities that would make the use of SA and TA viable in realistic, 2011 situations.

[Laphine]

Except these jobs with delay reduction traits receive more and more delay reduction that provide increased gain with each new tier. SA/TA can't beat that the way it currently works. Well, we did get a boost on this department, but the crit attack bonus trait we got is really underwhelming and it was just not enough.

First, everyone and their mom has at least some form on "enhance crit attack damage", so whatever balance it would provide was negated. Second, the trait walks over a decreasing return line. The more sources we have less productive it is to add new sources on top. And also the trait itself sucks. First tier being 5%, second being 3%, third will most likely be 3% too. Dual wield works with 5% and 10% delay reductions that are automatically better. No way around, 10% dual wield will always be better than 10% crit damage. If you had an imaginary crit hit rate of 100%, that 10% crit damage boost would provide an increase of 10% to damage if you had 0 crit damage bonus. DW coming from 0 is an 11% increase.

So yeah, it's no wonder we dream of having more and more DW.

I do believe increasing sa/ta performance, which are abilities that define our play style, would be best the approuch, and i can't say this enough, it really has got to be something significant. 8% increase to crit damage doesn't cut it.

An overhaul on ws damage that i proposed before would be incredible for one (lol i fell in love with this idea). 5k TARudras i was talking before was certainly an exaggeration, as the numbers would sit much lower, at around 3k. SARudras would stay around 3.5k. And all this with if we had capped attack. That's completely reasonable imo. The "big dds" can scratch those numbers with some luck, and we would still have a big restrictions of position and ja time, which means our average ws damage would be lower because we would still have to throw some unstacked ones inbetween.