Dual weild

[Myew]

Not wanting to go too far off topic, but between DNC and THF, a DNC easily either out-performs or matches a THF in every category except Treasure Hunter.

THF has a natrual advantage in Eva as pointed out, but you have to remember that you can only have so much evasion. A mob will never have less than a 20% chance to hit you. A DNC doesn't have to out-do a THF's Eva, they just have to get it to that point - which they can easily.

They out-damage a thief. You have to match like with like. Saying stuff like "their triple attack is even better with atma!" is facetious. A DNC can load the same Atmas. So a THF only has a +10% triple with max merit, which equates to 20 extra swings per 100. This is roughly equal to haste samba's collective bonus. Also, the AF+2 armor's triple bonus activation with max armor on is a 5% chance of a 10% chance (up to 30% if you stack atmas and gear). Versus the DNC AF+2 bonus which is at best a 10% chance of a 100% chance. (Since a DNC will always have a samba activated). That bonus ends up being much larger than the one THF gets.

Add on top of this that a DNC can natively heal better than even a SCH or RDM, stun and employ dmg reduction, there isn't even a contest between the two. All THF gets is TH and with the latest update, we have shown exactly how worthless large TH bonuses are.

[Kalima]

Edit: Saw the post further down. I find my Dnc to be more evasive than thief personally, they get a potent native Evasion bonus too, and a lot of their standard gear has evasion on it, where thief tends to stray from Evasion in lieu of more attack rate. Iirc the last time I did the numbers I think my thief only had something like 15 more evasion than my Dnc.

THF has 20 more skill and 25 more straight eva over DNC not including merits/CP etc. I don't know about you, but when I solo an NM on DNC then solo it on THF I just notice a huge difference in evade rate.

As far as damage goes, well all things considered DNC really can pump out some good numbers. With the right buffs I can ride my presto/step/RF timers and throw out a solo darkness SC every 30 secs or so. But at the same time would an optimal DNC be able to outparse say a pimped out mandau or twashtar THF? I honestly couldn't say.

But at the same time, it's absurd to think about such things lol...aside from a few tweaks here and there I'm pretty happy with both jobs.

[Pesh]

Sadly, no. Having leveled both, I can say my Dnc easily out DD's my thief, and can cure itself to boot. Both jobs have near perfect gear. Dnc just overwhelms my thief in so many ways, but never the one way that matters: Treasure Hunter.

I have yet to see a DNC match my THF in Abyssea. Between VV/RR/Apoc, low delay daggers, higher native skill, I simply trounce any DNC who has ever gone up against me.

We may swing a tiny bit slower (DW3 vs DW4), but we hit harder per swing (due to a higher native skill), we Triple Attack 1/3 of the time, and our AF3+2 is built to augment our damage. I'm sorry, but in a damage over time race, again I've yet to meet a DNC that isn't more than just a prancing wannabe THF.

[Kasandaro]

But at the same time would an optimal DNC be able to outparse say a pimped out mandau or twashtar THF?

For the record, wouldn't "optimal DNC" be a "Twashtar DNC"? And other than Homam and the AF3 sets, what optimal gear does THF90 get that DNC90 doesn't?

---

I have yet to see a DNC match my THF in Abyssea. Between VV/RR/Apoc, low delay daggers, higher native skill, I simply trounce any DNC who has ever gone up against me.

I've parsed both, with the gear I have, and if I'm not tanking on thf or healing on dnc, they're about the same, over time.

We may swing a tiny bit slower (DW3 vs DW4), but we hit harder per swing (due to a higher native skill)

Not notably, especially with what Atma does to everyone's numbers - and I've parsed it using the same daggers and atma.

we Triple Attack 1/3 of the time

True, DNC gets 15% less Triple Attack than what THF gets from AF3 and job traits. But DNC can pop up a lot of Double Attack.

and our AF3+2 is built to augment our damage.

DNC's AF3+2 is also built to augment our damage - namely, it occasionally doubles the damage of a hit when a samba is up. Which, unless they're Fan Dancing, is continual for a DNC.

teal deer? I'd be really surprised, due to the game-bending effect of atma and due to the sheer amount of common gear, if THF was actually that far ahead of DNC on damage. Is it a problem? For DNC, no. For THF? Kinda, yeah.

[noodles355]

Thief should have had native subtle blow a very long time ago. It's rediculous that it never got it.

Who cares if Dnc or Thf is better than the other? You should use this forum to talk about thief's strengths and weaknesses. You don't need to compare it to Dancer to do that. By all means compare their trait differences, but there's no point arguing about which is the stronger DD.

[Amoklauf]

I'm not surprised at all at how this thread became about DNC vs THF. DNC started trouncing on part of THF's territory/playstyle pretty early on after it was introduced.

THF's evasion made it pretty unique and a decent solo'er. DNC totally destroyed that aspect of THF overnight (in the sense that it was much better at it). NIN didn't suffer as much, since it could sub DNC with little sacrifice. I just hope that THF's durability does get a boost so that a THF subbing DNC would capable of similar things as DNC mains are now. Even better if THF's could maintain the safety of NIN sub and have unique ways of recovering and avoiding damage.

An obvious addition:
Perfect Evasion or Perfect Parry (ala Perfect Counter)

Perhaps not as obvious, but a personal favorite:
Better Bloody Bolts. I always felt like THF Marksmanship was given up on. It hasn't had new bolts in ages. Bloody bolts recover pathetic amounts of HP compared to huge HP pools we've gotten used to since Abyssea. The amount afaik is modded by VIT, which is a bit odd and not something you'd really want to stack up on over R.acc. Something in the range of 250 HP per shot would seem fair. The current total delays are already comparable to Curing Waltz3.

[noodles355]

250HP recovery per shot is rediculous and not comparable to a Waltz at all. Waltz costs 50% TP to use. That's about 5 attack rounds depending in your Dual Wield reduction and Store TP. That'll probably take around 15 seconds if you have a good haste setup and dont stop to cast any spells or use any JAs in the mean time. IT also then uses up that 50% TP.

A thief uses an xbow with either 216 delay (Ziska's) or something similar up to 288 delay. In that same time frame, a thief with said Xbow can make at least two shots. That would recover 500HP for free. Not only that, it would also make you do over 500 damage to the mob in two shots. It would also give you TP. That is completely overpowered.

[Arcon]

250 HP wouldn't really be overpowered imo, considering it slows your damage down a lot. In the time it takes you to get two shots off (including the delay while aiming and after the shot) you would do a lot more damage with melee swings. You could prolly do 4 rounds in that time, 6~8 probably depending on your magical haste. And considering you can do over 1k damage in a single round, it's simply a trade off between damage and health. And 250 HP per shot still doesn't mean much for mobs that THF has trouble tanking regardless. Namely AoE damage mobs. Not to mention you can't cast shadows while aiming, again including a 1~2s, which just means taking a risk of taking even more damage, something that DNC hasn't, cause JAs are instant.

THF vs. DNC is a sad argument imo. Because, as it is right now, DNC has an edge, which, added to their overall versatility, makes THF kinda seem like DNC-1, abused only for TH. Not saying it's a bad job, it still performs very well for its tasks (and it does in fact a lot higher evasion, so much that it's capped on almost all NMs, without needing specific gear or Atma). It's just hard not to be jealous at all the buffs DNC has been getting, while THF seems to have pulled the short straw.

Which is why I suggested that they do something about Steal/Despoil and Mug, make THF more useful in other areas, areas it was intended for originally.

On the topic.. THF should have always had the Dual Wield ability, as does WAR imo. Not even for any gameplay reasons, just cause it seems appropriate.. THF and WAR both sound like classes that should be allowed to carry two weapons. WAR possibly rather low tier, THF rather high. That's just my opinion though, would have always liked that.

[Claquesous]

I've still never been able to wrap my head around the logic of a dancer wielding one weapon, let alone two.

[thefinalrune]

As a THF my issue with our native dual wield was never so much in comparison to DNC as much as it was just insulting to start with. The high level, the odd level number and the limited tier of the whole thing just screams that it was an after thought tacked on trait instead of something thought out and truly designed for THF. I'd have rather we received a more useful trait than a gimp dual wield.