Sentinel VS Last Resort

[Naix]

Pld can hold hate with RR and enough defensive gear to not take dmg. /nin and wearing gear that reduces hate lost with dmg you can tank decently. add an almace and ur good ^^

however it requires work from the pld and the DD to make sure you keep hate. but xp parties required Drk/Sam/Blu to be careful before abyssea so they didnt steal the hate. i never see Thf's SATA plds in abyssea either...

to the OP sentinel definitely needs this boost. Fan Dance pretty much mops sentinel up only sentinel increases enmity.

I think your over-rating how good Almace is. Almace allows PLD to be acceptable with the rest of non-empryean DD's. When you compare apples to apples though, it goes through the same issue. PLD will hold as much hate as anyone else once it's capped in 1min or what have you.

PLD is broken in so many different ways I don't even know where you begin to fix it, unfortunately. PLDs (tanks) used to exist/be necessary because NMs wouldn't take enough dmg from DDing that they could hold hate through the cures they needed to be alive. PLD, RDM/NIN, NIN/DRK etc could hold hate without dealing damage and thus the tanking aspect was there. However, before Abyssea was out, gear that DDs could equip would keep increasing, to the point where they could hold hate through cures. Further to that, mages also got better gear/sj (/sch was huge) that would help them being filled with mp/more efficient with mp.

I would like to point out that a properly geared PLD will take less dmg then most jobs, or at worst, manageable damage in smaller chunks (as opposed to spike damage that you have to react to quickly.)

[Zagen]

I would like to point out that a properly geared PLD will take less dmg then most jobs, or at worst, manageable damage in smaller chunks (as opposed to spike damage that you have to react to quickly.)

Which jobs would that be? Because I can't think of a single DD job that can't gear the same amount of Damage Reduction and/or have something that currently out weighs the benefits of shield blocks (not counting Ochain or course). I just don't see it unless you're talking about Relic/Emp holder PLDs.

[Aeonk]

Which jobs would that be? Because I can't think of a single DD job that can't gear the same amount of Damage Reduction and/or have something that currently out weighs the benefits of shield blocks (not counting Ochain or course). I just don't see it unless you're talking about Relic/Emp holder PLDs.

I can think of a few jobs.

WAR for one. Even though they share the majority of PLD's PDT/MDT selection of armors (like Valhalla, Metallon Mantle, Nierenschutz, etc.) there is one piece they can't wear: Creed Cuirass +2. At high enmity that body piece mitigates 10ish% dmg taken. No body piece WAR has access to can top that.

JA wise, the only defensive skill WAR has access to is Defender. Which does nothing for them in the face of an HNM. Anything else comes from a sub job, meaning PLD has access to whatever that may be as well (making it a moot point.)
Shield blocking, Phalanx, Reprisal, Sentinel, and Rampart vs Defender... WAR has nothing on PLD.

Next up is DRG. Gear wise, they share most of the PDT/MDT gear too (minus valhalla). But Creed Cuirass +2 (and Valhalla) still puts PLD ahead.

Defensive JA's and such... nothing but a hate wipe on a 3 minute timer and their pet wyvern. If they're dealing the type of dmg they're supposed to be dealing, that Super Jump won't be doing them many favors. After that it's up to the wyvern. And although great for healing the dmg dealt in small doses, any HNM scale mobs will be hitting too hard for him to keep up.


I could probably think of some other examples, but it's time for my particular post to have a reality check. Although PLD may be relatively better than some of the jobs at raw dmg mitigation (or in the case of Ochain/Aegis, far outclass them) on paper, the other jobs can get enough dmg mitigation through all those ignored pieces I mentioned earlier, to bring their dmg taken down to levels that the healer can manage.
It's not so much that they do it better than PLD, just that they do it well enough on their own. Especially in abyssea, where very few mobs require "PLD levels" of dmg reduction to win (if any at all.)

[Greatguardian]

PDT and MDT also cap. Every job is able to hit capped MDT with relative ease. Some jobs have an easier time capping PDT than others (MNK/SAM/NIN have a massive advantage here, even over PLD), but it should not be impossible for most to do.

[Zagen]

WAR for one. Even though they share the majority of PLD's PDT/MDT selection of armors (like Valhalla, Metallon Mantle, Nierenschutz, etc.) there is one piece they can't wear: Creed Cuirass +2. At high enmity that body piece mitigates 10ish% dmg taken. No body piece WAR has access to can top that.

WAR PDT:
Balestarius -8%
Valhalla Helm -5%
Twilight Torque -5%
Grim Cuirass +1 - 6%
Melaco Mittens -3%
Metallon Mantle -4%
Nierenschutz -3%
Dst. Subligar +1 -3%
Jingang Greaves -3%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
-52%

That's 2% above the cap well 1%~ due to fractions either way WAR can reach the Cap.

WAR MDT:
Iron Ram Lance -10%
Valhalla Helm -5%
Twilight Torque -5%
Merman's Earring x2 -4%
Cor. Scale Mail +1 -4%
Coral Fng. Gnt. +1 -3%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
Nierenschutz -3%
Coral Cuisses +1 -3%
Askar Gambieras -2%
51%

1% Above or at MDT cap(not counting Aegis cap)

So again how does WAR not reach damage caps? Are these the most practical armor sets? Not really but then again neither is a full -PDT set on PLD.

Next up is DRG. Gear wise, they share most of the PDT/MDT gear too (minus valhalla). But Creed Cuirass +2 (and Valhalla) still puts PLD ahead.

DRG PDT:
Iron Ram Lance -10%
Darksteel Cap +1 -2%
Twilight Torque -5%
Colossus's Earring -1%
Gavial Mail +1 -4%
Melaco Mittens -3%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
Metallon Mantle -4%
Nierenschutz -3%
Gavial Cuisses +1-4%
Jingang Greaves -3%
51%

DRG MDT:
Iron Ram Lance -10%
Hydra Mask +1 -3%
Twilight Torque -5%
Merman's Earring x2 -4%
Cor. Scale Mail +1 -4%
Gavial Fng.Gnt. +1 -4%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
Colossus's Mantle -2%
Nierenschutz -3%
Coral Cuisses +1 -3%
Askar Gambieras -2%
52%

Again just like WAR not the best gear in the world but even DRG can get to -PDT/MDT caps.

Since the key to tanking currently is damage dealing and not mitigating it neither of these 2 jobs nor PLD "need" defensive JAs to tank.

Nice try though DRG had me worried until I remembered the Gavial/Hydra set.

Edit: the MDT sets are more for me wanting to see if the 2 jobs could reach -50% not that they need to I believe its -22% or -23% again depending on the fractioning of each gear and Shell V merits.

[Aeonk]

refer to post below

[Aeonk]

Gear sets

While items like the Iron Ram lance do help WAR and DRG hit the 50% cap, I left it out because it's impractical. Sacrificing TP to go defensive everytime the mob gets ready to do something nasty... you probably won't be tanking anyway so the whole point of the set is moot.

That said, you did prove that WAR and DRG can hit the respective caps. I'll give you credit for that. But that's where the JA's come into play. They're not needed, but they do technically disqualify WAR or DRG from being better at dmg mitigation than PLD.

I do agree with the point you're making though. PLD does desperately need some Offensive tweaks to have an easier time fitting in with the current trend of gameplay. I'm all for that, have been since I started posting here.

[Zagen]

While items like the Iron Ram lance do help WAR and DRG hit the 50% cap, I left it out because it's impractical. Sacrificing TP to go defensive everytime the mob gets ready to do something nasty... you probably won't be tanking anyway so the whole point of the set is moot.

That said, you did prove that WAR and DRG can hit the respective caps. I'll give you credit for that. But that's where the JA's come into play. They're not needed, but they do technically disqualify WAR or DRG from being better at dmg mitigation than PLD.

I do agree with the point you're making though. PLD does desperately need some Offensive tweaks to have an easier time fitting in with the current trend of gameplay. I'm all for that, have been since I started posting here.

Haha it was more "Oh you're challenging me eh!?" kinda moment, and then the MDT was "I wonder if they could hit 50%" moment, even though they only need about half that with a WHM (though I "think" -MDT caps at -25% for gear, I foreget since I don't leave home without a WHM on stuff that matters). Boring day at work after all

On my DD jobs when I tank, I actually use 0 -PDT/MDT gear most of the time and for the NMs I've fought with DD + WHM I've managed just fine (except that stupid Ranger Gigas for Bri pop KI, that sucker is random) There just isn't a "need" on many of the jobs because my WHM mule isn't running out of MP.

[Aeonk]

Haha it was more "Oh you're challenging me eh!?" kinda moment, and then the MDT was "I wonder if they could hit 50%" moment, even though they only need about half that with a WHM (though I "think" -MDT caps at -25% for gear, I foreget since I don't leave home without a WHM on stuff that matters). Boring day at work after all

On my DD jobs when I tank, I actually use 0 -PDT/MDT gear most of the time and for the NMs I've fought with DD + WHM I've managed just fine (except that stupid Ranger Gigas for Bri pop KI, that sucker is random) There just isn't a "need" on many of the jobs because my WHM mule isn't running out of MP.

Agreed. I keep enough MDT gear to cap on a macro and most of my PDT stuff on standby (unless I'm expecting near perma-stun/terror.) And that's more than enough in abyssea.
I'll admit, it's nice seeing someone else on the same wave length, rather than the same "raise PLD's hate cap" crap arguements.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Haha it was more "Oh you're challenging me eh!?" kinda moment, and then the MDT was "I wonder if they could hit 50%" moment, even though they only need about half that with a WHM (though I "think" -MDT caps at -25% for gear, I foreget since I don't leave home without a WHM on stuff that matters). Boring day at work after all

On my DD jobs when I tank, I actually use 0 -PDT/MDT gear most of the time and for the NMs I've fought with DD + WHM I've managed just fine (except that stupid Ranger Gigas for Bri pop KI, that sucker is random) There just isn't a "need" on many of the jobs because my WHM mule isn't running out of MP.

And that is the point in Abyssea WHM never does so it's irrelevant the DMG you take when they can heal you up, never take the hate or run out of MP.

But 99 is coming and Abyssea isn't being expanded on, so unless crazy ATMA comes outside or you have a RDM and BRD all the time the WHM WILL run out of MP. You wont have ridiculous HP, cruor buffs and so on so you can take the previously deadly moves like Spike Flail and laugh it off.