RDM tanking(post your comments and thoughts on it here)

[Glamdring]

Well, it seems that, most unfortunately, the devs have spoken, and have decided to get rid of the one source of enmity that we had left.

I don't know about the ONLY source, as a guy you might fight in a PVP if you cast Fire IV on me I WILL try to sink an axe into your forehead...

[Tamarsamar]

I don't know about the ONLY source, as a guy you might fight in a PVP if you cast Fire IV on me I WILL try to sink an axe into your forehead...

Only problem with that is that the conventional rules of enmity and tanking don't exactly apply in PVP.

And yes, strictly speaking our damage is also a source of enmity . . . but (assuming each job is going for damage) we should really only be out-damaging, what, Bards and (hopefully) White Mages? Which I suppose is passable if you're duoing with one of those jobs, but otherwise . . .

(Though there's not much reason for our damage to not be on par with the likes of Corsairs, Dancers, or Paladins . . .)

[Seriha]

A good BRD and WHM would probably trounce a RDM these days, sadly. Perhaps the only jobs RDM is better than martially would be SMN, SCH, and BLM. Though, I'd be fuzzy on SMN depending on whether or not you wanna count the avatar.

[Tamarsamar]

WHM I could see being debatable (which is actually very, very sad), but I'm not sure I could say the same for BRD. Though it got stupidly good melee gear "back in the day" (Sky gear and Hecatomb, anyone?), I haven't kept up with whether or not that trend continued with their gear past 75.

Concerning SMN, I am, in fact, counting avatars, and for SCH and BLM I'm counting magical damage (and assuming the SCH is in DD mode).

(And seriously S-E, I can understand not wanting to make RDM out-damage half of the jobs in the game, but if it's a distinct possibility for a *White Mage* to out-damage us, then it becomes just plain stupid.)

[AyinDygra]

Sorry for the "necrobump", but don't think we need two tanking threads out there.

In my recent "expansion" megapost, I added 6 "new jobs" that would have been 7, but when I reviewed the job, I realized "this isn't a new job, it's Red Mage in a tanking position." This job was Mystic Knight (link).

I'm wondering what Rdms would think about this topic: Would this be a potential compromise for the Rdm Melee crowd and magic crowd? Would they both welcome this new twist on the job? I'd like to keep the discussion here, rather than in the expansion thread, so I'll copy-paste it here.

* Mystic Knight
Basically, they're a combination of Celes from FF6, the Magical Fencer of FF5, Steiner of FF9, & Tidus' spheregrid section in FFX; Knights that used Runic & Swordspells, designed to be the perfect tank against magic casters and great damage dealers against monsters weak to certain elements. There is enough to this job to make it unique in FFXI, but Red Mage almost fits the description already with its selection of En-spells and in the past, Red Mage has shown its potential as a tank job, which is where I think it should be when it's on the front lines (sadly, most of its enmity tools were cut away, possibly intentionally, but likely just a side effect of helping other mages since they generated so much enmity). In this role, they can easily co-tank with a Paladin, so the party gets the best of both worlds.

To create the "Mystic Knight" side of Red Mage, add:
Abilities aimed at Tanking:

Runic Blade: (level 10) Several acceptable implementations come to mind, absorbing spells to prevent damage to self or party & gain MP. (This should be at a support job level so Paladin can use /Rdm against magic using enemies too.) Enemies should hate when their spells get absorbed. (enmity)
All For One and One For All:(Afoaofa) (Level 50) A Sphere effect that copies all self-target spell effects on the Red Mage to party members in range while they are in range. (May have a perpetuation cost associated with each active effect, like -1mp each) This needs to build more enmity for each person in range.

* Shield Job Abilities of some sort: one related to the Null-spells below. One may convert some damage blocked by their shield into MP. One may allow more than one "spikes" type effect to be active, like Ice Spikes and Shock Spikes or, if not possible, may increase the duration of spikes (alternatively, or additionally, they could have a shield-based ability that makes spikes spells actively strike their currently engaged enemy on a tick basis, and also reactively when hit.)
* "Ethereal Guard" that reduces magic damage taken in an area of effect for your nearby party members, and requires a shield to increase its AoE range and/or potency. (more enmity)

Job Abilities aimed at Melee:
Ensorceled Blade: (level 20) Allows elemental magic cast (by enemies, your party, or even yourself) to grant you a single-use effect like "sneak attack", that delivers the spell's damage through your next physical strike, bypassing normal magic evasion rates, replaced by physical checks. (may be linked to "Runic Blade"'s effect to absorb the spell first) This would be unique to Red Mage, perhaps simply granted to Red Mage as a trait, so use of Runic Blade enables this effect. This sort of additional damage DOES count toward enmity, unlike en-spell damage.
Spellsword Similar to Ensorceled Blade, this allows the Red Mage to strike physically and release a magic spell at the same time for the cost of MP and TP. They can't normally cast Ancient Magic; it can be done only through their blades. (see link above for more detail)
* Maybe an "En Garde" type stance that increases sword & dagger skill levels and improves Riposte rate at the expense of higher MP costs for spells.

Melee job traits

Riposte This allows counterattacks when wielding a sword. Riposte-Counter ignores defense.
Magic Fencer: Increases en-spell damage & elemental affinity related to current enspell's element.
Swordbreaker: When using a mainhand sword & offhand dagger, Increase Parry; may grant "offhand wield" without the offhand attacks of dual wield and will not add the delay impact of a second weapon in this case.

Existing Traits now given to Red Mage: Fencer, Critical Defense Bonus, Occult Acumen (stronger tiers of this and earlier than others) And more tiers of Shield Mastery starting at lower levels.

All sword weaponskills (with the exception of other jobs' mythic weaponskills)

A few unique spells:

Like Temper (would work great with "Afoaofa".)
Sharpen Increase melee attack power.
Lock Lowers enemy evasion. (an enfeeble that doubles as a melee bonus for those without much accuracy gear)
Reflect Reflect one single target spell back at caster. Does not reflect -ga spells, but -ga spells do not remove the reflect status when they hit. This capitalizes on the Magic Tank concept. Many times, however, casters attack with spells that they themselves are strong against, so the spells sent back at them won't be as powerful as feared by most who think this would be overpowered. As an example of a similar effect at work, see Ninja shadows which can completely nullify several single target spells; they just don't cause counter damage. (they don't cost MP either)
At higher levels:
Astra AoE spell that protects each person with the Astra status from the next enfeeble that hits. (Pld and Whm should get this too)
Null-Blaze/Frost/Thunder/Stone/Water/Wind Prevent damage from the next spell matching the current Null-element spell (not enfeebles, and enfeeble spells will not remove this status). Only one Null-spell can be active at any given time. These may be boosted in effect if a shield is equipped and a new shield skill is used to occasionally allow 2 spells to be blocked rather than one. Null-spells could also be given to Whm.
Tier III En-spells: The next offensive single-target spell (Tiers I-III, maybe IV) selected by the Rdm is "Instantly Cast" at no MP cost after all critical hits for the duration. (This effect could extend to also trigger after closing a skillchain that the chosen spell can magic burst off of, similar to a wyvern breath.) Enfeeble Spells may also be used with this ability, perhaps bypassing normal resistance checks, replaced by physical accuracy (and crit rate).

Gear that encourages melee/tanking

The tradeoff on these sets will be neglecting the magical stats. These sets of gear would have stats like:
* Enmity+
* Melee stats
* Enhance dual wield (despite not having it natively)
* Enhance convert (Converting more HP from each MP, so as a tank, they can directly convert their MP into HP to survive in dire circumstances. While spells may be more efficient and powerful at restoring HP, they can be interrupted.)
* Much more "enhance en-spell damage" gear along with some weapons that boost melee-mage stats like +accuracy and +magic accuracy of spells matching your current en-spell's element. (the use of en-spells to increase magic accuracy could also become a mage-side bonus, even when they're not engaged in melee combat.)

With these things, it's got a solid hold on a new niche when it's not on the back lines. (If any of this seems too powerful, you're expectation of the effect is too strong. If you math-wiz people feel so inclined, please provide SE with math to show how crazy something really is to be called overpowered, or show how strong it would have to be to be useful.) As for being the ultimate self-enhancers in the game, this concept builds on that vision quite well. Many of these abilities and spells should be available from /Rdm as a support job for other tanks.

This is what we end up with:

Back Lines Red Mage: Enhance self and others & Enfeeble monsters, with some Curing & Nuking thrown in. (These are the current abilities that cause them to be invited to parties such as Haste and Refresh. I'm not suggesting removing this party role. They do need more unique enfeebling spells that no other jobs get, and they need debuffs to land on more enemies that matter, which is one thing that's being adjusted as I write.)

Front Lines Red Mage: Anti-Magic Tank & Elemental Damage Dealer. Enhance self with spells to damage & protect while enfeebling the enemy to survive. Cure self & party members for more enmity (maybe En Garde cancels out Tranquil Heart's effect and makes all magic create more enmity?, especially enfeebles), nuke for extra damage and for bonus enmity from magic bursts (trait of En Garde?).

These are mutually exclusive roles. You shouldn't expect a front lines Red Mage to fulfill any/many of the back line roles simultaneously unless your party runs into problems and they have to switch roles on the fly. And they certainly wouldn't fill their enhancing role while tanking, unless they get sphere effects or AoE buffs that don't have to be cast on each individual party member over and over.

If this sounds too much like a new job... and you want to step this far onto Red Mage's toes, taking over En-spell mastery and curing and nuking... go ahead and make Mystic Knight!

P.S. Many of my ideas are elaborated on my post in the Red Mage melee thread here. (link) My concept has evolved since then, as seen in this job idea, beyond what I originally posted.

[Jeez]

boom magic tank class out of nowhere

Actually, I very much like the idea of an anti-magic tank. Runic and Reflect have long been suggestions for RDM to have, and combining elemental magic with sword swings I'm pretty sure I've seen one or two versions of it suggested. Now that I think about it, since PLD was stripped of its right to tank physical attacks, do you suppose that SE is trying to push PLD to become a primarily magic defense job? This would probably be more likely than giving RDM the ability to tank again.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Actually, I very much like the idea of an anti-magic tank. Runic and Reflect have long been suggestions for RDM to have, and combining elemental magic with sword swings I'm pretty sure I've seen one or two versions of it suggested. Now that I think about it, since PLD was stripped of its right to tank physical attacks, do you suppose that SE is trying to push PLD to become a primarily magic defense job? This would probably be more likely than giving RDM the ability to tank again.

Who is your dealer and where can I get some of that good stuff.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

How has PLD been stripped? just because it isn't used as one doesn't change the fact it's still the best job for DMG mitigation.

[Jeez]

Of its right, not its ability! It's been removed from tanking by the presence of evasion and shadow tanks, that's all I meant.

[Swords]

Eh that's all on perspective, it's always been a back and forth deal between PLD and NIN and really it always comes down to which is better according to the situation.