Any new HNM coming?

[Karbuncle]

(This isn't Pointed in the Direction of any particular Poster)

Really the Idea of 21-24hrs stems from the fact its mostly monopolization, allowing those people who have such a Superiority complex to maintain Monopoly over said Items from the 21-24hr HNM. This keeps them "Superior" by screwing everyone else who doesn't have the newest 2,000$ Bot.

That, And you can't Technically monopolize Questable items. So if you were to offer logic like you have just now, Cream_Soda, About Making Difficult Quests (in terms of Mythic) to obtain Rarer, More powerful Armor generally not accessable entirely by Casuals, They probably wouldn't go for it.

(I For one, Completely agree with you. I prefer Challenges that don't involve 21-24 hour Waiting periods.)

[Anewie]

Lol i was implying to your always using DBZ charactersz in your sig/avatar on BG. That is you right? lol and Yeah I don't agree with monopolization and that is the case sometimes but it's not the only reason people do them. Some people genuinally enjoy the rush of it and dont cheat. I am one of those players. I really enjoyed Ixion, Sandworm, Khimera and Cerberus. I also enjoyed Salvage, Dynamis and many other instanced events.

I don't approve of botting and that became inevitable in the scene, so I agree with you, cheaters/monopolizers will do just that. At the same time, I think it was SEs fault for not implementing measure to prevent it. As someone has mentioned before, there are ways to prevent botting. You cannot bot shit like Ixion or Shikigami weapon for example. Although you can scan using various cheats, there are also ways to make it so inconvienant for a "deathspot" or "footprint" scanner, it would be pointless. I don't want people to think I'm some lame ass who wants to screw you outta the game.

I like the casual content. I can do abyssea with just my husband whenever I feel like and if we need people for something, we simply shout. Nothing is rly hard anymore or even time consuming. I also enjoy camping. I'm a long time player (is that u surreal from seedz ls? sup<3). I very much enjoyed the HNMs MINUS kings. I did not enjoy kings after the first year or two due to all the bs. I'm all for them never adding world spawns again, I can understand why others wouldnt like that but I'd be lying if I said I do not miss the camping and competiting aspect of some of the older non king HNMs.

I guess my point is, not everyone is a botting, cheating jerk who justs wants to beat some other guy just to be better. I enjoy both casual and elite content and would love to camp a rare monster occasionally that has some nice drops. For gil or otherwise. The competiting aspect isnt nessicary but I also enjoy and don't mind competition, it adds a rush. In world spawns that drop valuable gear, competition is invenitable most times. It's not any deeper than that. I can just do abyssea if I don't have time to do that or don't feel up to the challenge.

People who just wanna beat ppl to beat them is silly. People who just want to win so badly they cheat, well thats what ruins the game for everyone. I understand that.

[Karbuncle]

I understand that not Everyone at HNM's bot. but there is nearly 100% Chance that SOMEONE at the HNM camp is botting, Which ruins it for everyone evolved rather they cheat or not. It takes just 1 bot to make the experience unenjoyable :|

I think that people who fought Pandy or AV (before it was obvious he was Immortal >.>!) for the first time, Even though he was a Forced-Pop NM, Probably felt a bigger rush killing/fighting them then they ever felt fighting Ixion or Khimaira.

So why not stick to those systems? You can still have a thrill getting to kill an NM if its a forced pop, It doesn't need to be "Theres 1 for the entire server, it spawns here, KNOCK YOURSELVE OUT LUL, oh and it only spawns every 1-4 days". It could be "Theres your Mega boss, but you must work up to him! fight his minions to reach him!" in a VNM/Abyssea Style. Really an Abyssean-Like system outside of Abyssea wouldn't be awful. Whats the biggest complaint about Abyssea is that its Too easy, Remove Atmas, Cruor, Etc from Abyssea, and it would be a perfect system.

Work for pops to pop lesser NM with okay drops > Collect Multiple KI > Pop Big guy and take him down. Its like the VNM system without the stupid Camera-Fetch Quest. Can you imagine the Difficulty Of Rani/Raja, even NMs like Turul if you didn't use Cruor buffs or Atmas?

The reason Abyssean NMs feel waterred down is because how much God-mode we feel in Abyssea. So i reiterate, a System like Abyssea (Kill lesser NM, get pops for Bigger NM, to get a pop for the biggest BA NM) outside of Abyssea i think would create the same level of thrill as it did for Pandemonium Warden, and Absolute Virtue. I bet back when we were 75, for PW at least, it was one of the hardest things to beat, and any LS who did beat it probably felt more pride in that achievement than any amount of Fafnir, Nidhogg, or Ixion, and PW Wasn't 21-24hr NM.

So its just an example that you can make an NM not driven by 21-24hr Bot-wars, thats Still a thrill to kill and fight, and still a rush. Where the challenge is the fight, Not the claim.

[Anewie]

I personally would like more world spawn monsters that are unique like IXI/SW (loved the doomvoid stuff) that drop auction houseable gear or large amounts of gil. I don't think theres NMs in game that just drop good gil, thatd be kinda cool. I personally only partook in those camps for farming purposes.

If the gear is AHable, it shouldnt be hands down the best. It should be situatiually good or situationally the best to even out its value with other things that wont require a person to do it to have something almost as situationally good.

For example, if you wanted ebody u had to camp nidhogg, i dont think it should be that deep. Antares harness is great for farming and using, but theres other stuff thats almost as good or situationally better. (speaking of the time it was released).
I don't think the casual base should feel obligated to camp or do anything or else they wont have something really nice that isnt gimp compared to something that requires lots of time or camping.

And also, the issue of preventing botting or cheating seems like it could be easy but its niave to think that i suppose after all these years.


Someone suggested staggers. Someone suggsted it going red to random person in aggro range? And deathspot scanning can be trumped by simply having random repop timers for long and short periods of time spread accross vast amounts of zones. These could also depend on weather/season, etc. Just throwing ideas out there for how it can be prevented. People bot for convienance and advantage, it doesnt seem too hard to rly impliment measure to really limit convienance and advantage for cheaters.

[Karbuncle]

I personally would like more world spawn monsters that are unique like IXI/SW (loved the doomvoid stuff) that drop auction houseable gear or large amounts of gil. I don't think theres NMs in game that just drop good gil, thatd be kinda cool. I personally only partook in those camps for farming purposes.

If the gear is AHable, it shouldnt be hands down the best. It should be situatiually good or situationally the best to even out its value with other things that wont require a person to do it to have something almost as situationally good.

For example, if you wanted ebody u had to camp nidhogg, i dont think it should be that deep. Antares harness is great for farming and using, but theres other stuff thats almost as good or situationally better. (speaking of the time it was released).
I don't think the casual base should feel obligated to camp or do anything or else they wont have something really nice that isnt gimp compared to something that requires lots of time or camping.

And also, the issue of preventing botting or cheating seems like it could be easy but its niave to think that i suppose after all these years.


Someone suggested staggers. Someone suggsted it going red to random person in aggro range? And deathspot scanning can be trumped by simply having random repop timers for long and short periods of time spread accross vast amounts of zones. These could also depend on weather/season, etc. Just throwing ideas out there for how it can be prevented. People bot for convienance and advantage, it doesnt seem too hard to rly impliment measure to really limit convienance and advantage for cheaters.

I completely agree there are ways to make Roaming 21-24HR Nm unbottable, my argument is that 21-24hr NMs as a System is flawed and outdated. The only thing is good for is promoting Monopolization of select few HNM Linkshells.

If Ixion was a Forced Pop from a ??? based on off of some Campaign-related Quest line to defeat NMs to get his pop, he would be just as thrilling and fun to fight (Cause he is unique, "Running people over", etc, His fighting style is unique too. Truthfully I've only tanked him once Lol..... So i dont have vast Knowledge, but it was a fun fight.)

I'm just with tiger on this one, I don't want to go back to the Dark Ages of botted NMs and 2-3 Linkshell Monopolizing entire aspects of Endgame (in this case, Land-kings). Systems like VNMs, ZNM, Abyssean-pop system (Ignoring Atma/Cruor) were all steps in the right direction. They created a sense of progression and fighting NMs like Yilbegan, etc, was just as exciting as fighting Ixion/SW/Nid, to me anyway... Its just i felt i had more ability to kill/fight VNM/ZNMs.

It felt like i had the Freedom to do it, I didn't have to wait for a spawn window, I could go out and fight them if we decided too. Build up the pop, Work to fight it, and then finally get to it and defeat it.

I just think if people really liked the thrill of HNMs, not just for monopolization or controlling the inflow of gear, they could Enjoy an HNM even if its spawn methods were similar to VNM/ZNM. Those who Insist on 21-24hr HNMs... the motive is clear. They want the control back.

[Orson]

Even with cruor buffs and atmas Abyssea is still fairly challenging. The difference is they didn't really scale HNM hp like they did back in older content. The fights are designed to be faster and in that way they actually are easier. 200k Brews are the one thing that really made the content easy. If not for that certain HNMs are still really tough if not handled carefully. I think people are really over selling how hard content was pre-abyssea. T3 Einherjar was probably the hardest thing in the game before the level increase and people were beating that very regularly with smaller groups. Every single worth while free spawn NM was being easily killed by like 6-8 people. Abyssea reduced the average group killing stuff? Sort of but apart from mass adds like Einherjar and PW you never needed a lot of people (well apart from the odd gimmick like Odin.)

PW/AV weren't as much hard as they were broken content. They were just really gimmicky for the most part. Our group was the first to take down PW on our server and it wasn't a push over but after beating it we saw how it would be fairly easy to beat consistently. It was just more or less reliant on you having an army of people to sac. Zerging AV was probably one of the hardest things to do in the game but really it was a cheese tactic to take down something that couldn't be killed.

Again though challenging content is a lot of fun but I want to be able to set up times where my friends and I can access the content without being blocked by other people. If the content is challenging because it takes like 100 hrs to complete with a decent size group then so be it. People deserve to be able to work at their own pace but if they're putting in the same amount of work over a longer period then they deserve the same pay off in the end. Also the flip side to this is no one should be able to walk up to Nidhogg kill it once and get an e.body like in the past that's not a challenge.

[Karbuncle]

Even with cruor buffs and atmas Abyssea is still fairly challenging. The difference is they didn't really scale HNM hp like they did back in older content. The fights are designed to be faster and in that way they actually are easier. 200k Brews are the one thing that really made the content easy. If not for that certain HNMs are still really tough if not handled carefully. I think people are really over selling how hard content was pre-abyssea. T3 Einherjar was probably the hardest thing in the game before the level increase and people were beating that very regularly with smaller groups. Every single worth while free spawn NM was being easily killed by like 6-8 people. Abyssea reduced the average group killing stuff? Sort of but apart from mass adds like Einherjar and PW you never needed a lot of people (well apart from the odd gimmick like Odin.)

PW/AV weren't as much hard as they were broken content. They were just really gimmicky for the most part. Our group was the first to take down PW on our server and it wasn't a push over but after beating it we saw how it would be fairly easy to beat consistently. It was just more or less reliant on you having an army of people to sac. Zerging AV was probably one of the hardest things to do in the game but really it was a cheese tactic to take down something that couldn't be killed.

Incase this is in my direction at all, I never claimed Pre-abyssea was hard. in fact, It was easy as heck lol.

I was only mentioning Abyssea Content at its proper level was easier than Non-Abyssean Content at 75, and that I think its possible to recreate the thrill of taking down/fighting an HNM for the first time, Without attaching a 21-24hr tag to it

[Orson]

No, more or less I'm just talking generally. A lot of people have rose colored glasses in regard to back when content was hard. Which really is wasn't very hard. I remember killing DI with like 6 people after watching a group of 15ish people wipe time and time again. I've seen just as large of groups wipe to Tunga. The challenge on most of the NMs back then was learning their routines. Same thing in abyssea really but party dynamics have also changed slightly because of the emphasis on procing weaknesses.

[Natenn]

Anewie is better at explaining it then i am lol, ill admit part of me likes the feeling of being able to claim almost every pop but i never did. We got a good 85+% of SW/DI claims cause the monet we made off them made us all $. Alot of ppl in my LS had or were close to relics because of this. Things like kings i camped when they were popular i know its bs watching ghe same group bot every HQ and brag when you know they duck skill wise. But when we claimed it was worth watching them get so mad over it just for the laughs. SW/DI was fun bc ppl were so mad we claimed they would just make fools of themselfs providing more lols. And these ppl showed up with out powder boots or jobs that could hold SW/DI long enough for their tank to get there. Not to mention the 3 A.M. Tiamats. By someones logic why should anyone care what i wanna do with my time? We all know world spawns will be camped to a point unless its a 3-5 day pop over several zones.

[Karbuncle]

Anewie is better at explaining it then i am lol, ill admit part of me likes the feeling of being able to claim almost every pop but i never did. We got a good 85+% of SW/DI claims cause the monet we made off them made us all $. Alot of ppl in my LS had or were close to relics because of this. Things like kings i camped when they were popular i know its bs watching ghe same group bot every HQ and brag when you know they duck skill wise. But when we claimed it was worth watching them get so mad over it just for the laughs. SW/DI was fun bc ppl were so mad we claimed they would just make fools of themselfs providing more lols. And these ppl showed up with out powder boots or jobs that could hold SW/DI long enough for their tank to get there. Not to mention the 3 A.M. Tiamats. By someones logic why should anyone care what i wanna do with my time? We all know world spawns will be camped to a point unless its a 3-5 day pop over several zones.

'
I understand the rest of your post I just wanna comment on this one thing.

If 21-24hr/3-5day HNMs were introduced and had the best gear, We'd be FORCED to care about what you do with your time, because if anyone ever wanted to get gear for their job they'd be forced to camp those NMs. and a lot of us would be forced to bot or join a botting shell if we ever wanted to claim/kill. and some of us care about our characters enough to not Cheat/bot. :|

Also about the World spawns, Its true it will be camped no matter what, Which is the exact reason we don't want them back :|. With VNM/ZNM/Abyssean type systems, you didn't have to wait 21-24hrs, Forcing you to return the next day and the next day, Eventually working your entire play-schedule around the same 4-5 Different HNM windows.

I think a lot of people did leave because the game felt "Too much like a job" to them. Logging on, Going to multiple Scheduled HNM camps to have a chance to claim, and finishing the day when the windows were over. it felt like a chore to get the armor. I do not imply everyone felt this way, But its was as much a problem to them as not having them is for you. its a double-edged sword. Make some happy and make some sad.

So its really hard to find a fair balance. I would prefer a ZNM/VNM type system where You can pop an NM when you feel like going to fight it. Even if it required a long build up like getting to PW, just being able to fight it without having ToD would be nice.

but I think you at least understand that too