Dynamic Gameplay Discussed

[Greatguardian]

I would appreciate it, if people would stop bypassing every other point in my post and just refer to something trivial that's said which makes up 1% of the discussion.

You seem to just want to bash peoples good ideas, because you're not talking about anything positive towards how to create more dynamic boss battles. Instead you imply that I'm a "Noob" because I don't Zerg everything like you do. Same sort of stuff that happened in the "A Ninja without Throwing" thread. Try something new and different, please.

And if you didn't already realize, the point of this thread is how to take "Zerging" out of the game.

I thought my point was very relevant. You said that AV was not impossible (it was), it was just incredibly difficult (it's not when it's zerged). It was implied that you believed players were able to kill AV without zerging, and they're not. You cited the fact that people have AV items as proof, and I'm telling you that even I have AV items and my shell most definitely does not kill AV without zerging. Heck, most of the time we kill it with 10~ or so.

All of this goes back to your post a few lines up, wherein you said that "Point B is irrelevant". It is not, and that is why. AV was most certainly impossible, and most certainly still is impossible to kill in the "Normal", "Dynamic" way.

Also, saying that I bash people's good ideas implies that the ideas I "bash" are good. When you present a case, you leave yourself open to criticism. I have not launched any personal attacks against you. I am simply saying that certain points you present are patently incorrect. It is then your responsibility as the presenter of the idea to either dispute my claim, or accept my claim and change your presentation in such a way that it would no longer be incorrect.

[Akujima]

It is then your responsibility as the presenter of the idea to either dispute my claim, or accept my claim and change your presentation in such a way that it would no longer be incorrect.

Even if AV was "Impossible" because of an obvious Flaw in Dynamics from the developers, doesn't mean that the solution should be to just get rid of dynamics entirely and result to the "Zerg Method".

If a fight becomes literally IMPOSSIBLE, then the dynamics are obviously flawed somehow and need to be adjusted.

Point proved.

[Greatguardian]

Even if AV was "Impossible" because of an obvious Flaw in Dynamics from the developers, doesn't mean that the solution should be to just get rid of dynamics entirely and result to the "Zerg Method".

If a fight becomes literally IMPOSSIBLE, then the dynamics are obviously flawed somehow and need to be adjusted.

Point proved.

Oh. I didn't know we were discussing tautologies. If that's the case, I should probably contribute something meaningful to the discussion.

Water is wet.

[Akujima]

Oh. I didn't know we were discussing tautologies. If that's the case, I should probably contribute something meaningful to the discussion.

Water is wet.

You know I could report this post for being sarcastic pointless dribble. But I won't. Because you're correct. Water IS wet.

You think that things exist without having characteristics? What is a RNG without a bow and a gun? What is a BLM that can never cast offensive spells?

Using sarcasm to win "Like" button presses, does not disregard the point in how making everything a "Zerg" blurs the line of Job characteristics.

[Greatguardian]

You know I could report this post for being sarcastic pointless dribble. But I won't. Because you're correct. Water IS wet.

You think that things exist without having characteristics? What is a RNG without a bow and a gun? What is a BLM that can never cast offensive spells?

Using sarcasm to win "Like" button presses, does not disregard the point in how making everything a "Zerg" blurs the line of Job characteristics.

It was about as thoughtful as the post above it. I was simply speaking on topic.

The fact of the matter is simple. Jobs in FFXI are not as unique as you want them to be. At the core of the job system is the Character. The Character is then given Traits, Skills, Abilities, and Spells based on what job they are on. But they will always be a Character. Characters will always follow certain rules. Characters are augmented by their jobs, they are not defined by them.

When a Character chooses the Ranger Job, their proficiency with the Bow and the Gun is enhanced. They are given Traits, Skills, and Abilities which serve to enhance their Ranged abilities. A Ranger does not have to use a Bow, or a Gun, or even a Boomerang at all though. They can use a Dagger, or a Sword. Rangers use Bows and Guns because that is the most effective way for them to deal damage.

Likewise, it is not the case that "Everything" has to be zerged. Players will simply do what is most effective. If that happens to be a zerg, people will do it. Zerging is powerful. In some cases, like AV, it is impossible to kill some NMs without zerging them. In others, like Bahamut v2, it is simply much more efficient to zerg them.

With that said, it's not like the game prohibits you from killing things without zerging in pretty much every case aside from AV. You are more than welcome to fight and kill things dynamically on your own time with your own friends. As the game does not prevent this, I don't see why there is any real ground for an adjustment to the game.

[Akujima]

Likewise, it is not the case that "Everything" has to be zerged. Players will simply do what is most effective. If that happens to be a zerg, people will do it. Zerging is powerful. In some cases, like AV, it is impossible to kill some NMs without zerging them. In others, like Bahamut v2, it is simply much more efficient to zerg them.

With that said, it's not like the game prohibits you from killing things without zerging in pretty much every case aside from AV. You are more than welcome to fight and kill things dynamically on your own time with your own friends. As the game does not prevent this, I don't see why there is any real ground for an adjustment to the game.

Sure. You could just pick up the chess table and smash it on the ground (Zerg) because you're tired of having to use careful planned out strategy in order to win. But did you actually win according to how chess is supposed to be won?

Point of this thread is to incorporate the strategy back into the game. And not allow "Ah lets just Zerg it" to be the only method. I realize how efficient "Zerging" is, but this is a game after all, not real life.

[Greatguardian]

Sure. You could just pick up the chess table and smash it on the ground (Zerg) because you're tired of having to use careful planned out strategy in order to win. But did you actually win according to how chess is supposed to be won?

Point of this thread is to incorporate the strategy back into the game. And not allow "Ah lets just Zerg it" to be the only method. I realize how efficient "Zerging" is, but this is a game after all, not real life.

Bad analogy, yet again. Here, let's re-use the Maze analogy from the other thread. In a "Dynamic" fight, you try to find your way through the maze. In a Zerg fight, you just run straight through the walls.

Both ways, you win. When you zerg, you win faster. Is it as "refined" as finding your way through the maze? No. Is it less correct, though? No. The only objective is to get from the entrance to the exit of the maze. When you have the ability to just break through the walls, it is not "Wrong" or "Incorrect" to utilize the abilities you are given.

As I have already pointed out, "Ah let's zerg it" is not the only method to anything aside from AV. There is always the option to kill things in other ways. Just because some players choose to zerg things does not mean the game is broken. "Dynamic" strategy is there if players choose to utilize it. It is simply more work for less reward (over time) to do so. If you consider the strategy fun, go kill things strategically with like-minded friends. That is all there is to it.

[RaenRyong]

Sure. You could just pick up the chess table and smash it on the ground (Zerg) because you're tired of having to use careful planned out strategy in order to win. But did you actually win according to how chess is supposed to be won?

Point of this thread is to incorporate the strategy back into the game. And not allow "Ah lets just Zerg it" to be the only method. I realize how efficient "Zerging" is,

but this is a game after all, not real life.

Don't use real life analogies on it. The premise of your analogy is also incorrect because, as you stated,

But did you actually win according to how chess is supposed to be won?

when in this case, zerging does "win chess how it's supposed to be won" because the game allows it to happen and it is not marked as a glitch. Whether or not you LIKE the strategy is irrelevant: it is legitimate. A win is legitimate as long as I stay within game rules, whether I want to zerg it, SC+MB it, throw 18 PUPs at it or whatever.

But yes, I have to agree with GreatGuardian. It is difficult to make truly dynamic fights because the basic system is not incredibly dynamic to begin with. People will always use the most efficient way to defeat something which tends to be the simplest because the less variables you have to contend with, the greater your odds of success.

[Arlan]

It was about as thoughtful as the post above it. I was simply speaking on topic.

The fact of the matter is simple. Jobs in FFXI are not as unique as you want them to be. At the core of the job system is the Character. The Character is then given Traits, Skills, Abilities, and Spells based on what job they are on. But they will always be a Character. Characters will always follow certain rules. Characters are augmented by their jobs, they are not defined by them.

When a Character chooses the Ranger Job, their proficiency with the Bow and the Gun is enhanced. They are given Traits, Skills, and Abilities which serve to enhance their Ranged abilities. A Ranger does not have to use a Bow, or a Gun, or even a Boomerang at all though. They can use a Dagger, or a Sword. Rangers use Bows and Guns because that is the most effective way for them to deal damage.

Likewise, it is not the case that "Everything" has to be zerged. Players will simply do what is most effective. If that happens to be a zerg, people will do it. Zerging is powerful. In some cases, like AV, it is impossible to kill some NMs without zerging them. In others, like Bahamut v2, it is simply much more efficient to zerg them.

With that said, it's not like the game prohibits you from killing things without zerging in pretty much every case aside from AV. You are more than welcome to fight and kill things dynamically on your own time with your own friends. As the game does not prevent this, I don't see why there is any real ground for an adjustment to the game.

This guy is really making good points here.
I would have to agree that Players will simply do what is most effective. If that happens to be a zerg, it will be done pretty much.

In ACP final fight with the crystal, you had 2 methods of beating it, the Zerging method or the Ranging method.
I beat it with the Range method but lost to the zerg method.
But both methods are fun to do if you execute them right.
So ya. =)

[Kimiko]

Problem is, eventually every fight will be dissected and broken down to a near 100% win strategy similar to point A. Really the only way to ensure a challenging fight is random elements that cannot be neatly broken down or catagorized. For example, Proto-Ultima during it's multiple stages (especially with random screens), Vrtra, and so forth.