Quote Originally Posted by Juxtaposition View Post
I should note that all of my arguments are under the assumption of an ideal party setup; that is, a (reasonable) tank, a (reasonable) healer, and a utility (WAR for red, BLM for grellow, etc.) If you are soloing or duoing with two melees, for instance, I do not consider that to be ideal, and thus /DNC or MNK/NIN becomes viable. When I call /DNC a gimp subjob, it is in the context of an ideal party setup. Sorry for the confusion. That said I have a few more things to touch on.
That is a reasonably fair call. I would however use /DNC in some cases that I know you wouldn't - however that is based on opinion. Yes I do agree /WAR is more ideal for most circumstances when in an ideal party setup, against your every-day Abyssea NM.

Call me gimp if you like here, or call my WHM rubbish - I do however use /DNC as a sub if I know the mob I will be fighting is going to be a debuff mob - for a simple fact of being able to remove status effects without calling for them. That, and I <3 Violent Flourish.

I do trust my WHM to the end of the earth - when in my regular static. However in my opinion (and I repeat, my opinion), against some NM's, I prefer to choose a sub with more survivability over killing the NM a little faster - Death still happens even to the best of players. Increasing survivability when there is a risk of death in my opinion is always a plus - whether or not the WHM is good. Violent flourish does indeed "save the day" at times. If the WHM is /BLM then that usually isn't an issue, however on the off chance that the WHM is casting a 3-4 second spell in any manner, an NM starts to TP - it is always nice to be able to be on the ball and stun it myself.


Those four times were with Threnody, sorry I was unclear. The point I was making was that just because it so happened to occur once doesn't mean that it is the norm.
Wow, I don't doubt that it happened but that is totally out of the norm - at least from my experience. I will be honest - there has only been one time where we have been through every possible elemental spell (BLM/NIN/BLU) apart from BRD a few times and it hasn't proc'd so we assumed it was a BRD spell. So I am sure it happens, I just personally havn't seen it as often as people state.

I guess there must be a little bit of luck involved there.

NIN and MNK are both great tanks, I agree. THF and DNC are also passable tanks. PLDs are bad tanks. Conceptually, MNKs are superior tanks to NIN, player skill, gear and atmas have no consideration when discussing a class theoretically because the classes should be assumed to be played at their best.
Very true on half of that statement. The ideal tanks in the game re NIN, MNK, THF & DNC. PLD's I will agree are less then ideal when tanking in Abyssea - however I believe PLD is still at a top-teir level outside of Abyssea.

We can disagree with this all day - I believe MNK and NIN both have their advantages and disadvantages in certain circumstances. Neither outpasses the other for absolutely every circumstance. In the end - is gear circumstantial? Yes. Is party setup circumstantial? Yes. The whole game is based on circumstances in which some setups outpass the other - and to compare NIN & MNK in a flat out tanking war, I believe it is impossible to call the winner - due to the aforementioned "circumstance".

That is not to say that MNKs are always the superior tank. Indrik is a prime example of a NIN fight; being able to bypass Scintillant Lance as a NIN is huge when it will regularly one shot MNKs is a huge boon. That said, fights where NINs are preferred over MNKs are few and far between, which is why MNK is superior.
Responded to the last part of your quote without reading this one.

True MNK is not ideal in all circumstances, however I disagree with the point that MNK can "out-tank" most other NM's as NIN can pretty much do the exact same with an ideal party setup. If we go down to the nit and grit of a tank's job and that is to avoid damage / stay alive - while keeping hate off everyone else - I believe both jobs are equal due to what I mentioned in the previous post.

Guard & Counter & HP vs. Evasion & Shadows.

Both are comparable. A NIN can tank as much as a MNK can - they just do the job differently.

And because someone will comment on the PLD can of worms I opened, PLDs are bad tanks because they rely on cooldowns, MP, and do not bring damage. MP I know is not a big issue in abyssea, but it is a limitation nonetheless. Cooldown dependency is a big issue because once you pop your enmity generating abilities, PLDs are a sitting duck for a DD to TP on the mob and steal hate. Their inability to deal damage is worse than you might first expect because once Johnny DD steals hate, PLDs have a hard time reclaiming it, opposed to a MNK or NIN who can easily WS to reclaim hate. Extended fights are even worse due to the enmity cap. The final nail in the coffin is a vast amount of abyssean NMs utilize hate resets. Aside from their cooldowns, PLDs cannot easily reclaim hate with a WS like NINs and MNKs can.
+2. Agreed completely. However I do believe PLD still has their place outside Abyssea as one of the higher tier tanking jobs. (Didn't say highest, just higher).

There are arguments - and a lot of truth behind both of our points. I know this discussion won't come to a close, however I am in a much calmer state due to the absense of trolling I read in your later posts Juxt.

I apologise for my previous assumption on your mentality, and can understand where you are coming from on the points you are making. This discussion as evolved from being trolled to something a lot more grown up and reasonable.