Nin are better tanks now?

**Alderin** · 03-19-2011 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Using math to show that you're wrong but then stating that it doesn't matter what the math shows is not a good way to win a debate.

Your ability to read is laughable. I am just defending the poor guy that was originally trolled.

Scroll back a few pages, open your eyes a little wider and re-check some usernames. You will notice that was my first post on this topic.

If your referring to me using math, hell I will admit - my math is terrible and wouldn't want to use it even if I had to.

Please grab a quote of what I said because I seem to be missing the math side of my own post here.

**SNK** · 03-20-2011 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Depends on what you're fighting.

I would only take a mnk tank over a nin tank if red !! was not needed, as mnk is on the short end of the stick in that department.

Don't need red? Mnk

Need red? Nin

This in a nutshell. NIN in Abyessa went from a subpar tank outside of Abyessa to an amazing damage dealer and solid as hell tank. The ability to have 5 Shadows at once alone is close to as broken as it can get being a NIN.

I'm in a lowman static with a NIN WHM BLU DRK & me as a BLM. Thru most of what we farm and kill this setup has had almost no issues procting Red or Gello. Most recent thing we did which I never fought before until the servers went poop was the Behemoth in La Thiene. I thought it was a pretty simple fight until the Meteor Spam at 10%ish but we still managed to take it down with Red, Gello, and Blue Triggers along with me getting a 1st time ever TH10 Proct for full drops.

Fun fight and I hope we can do more when the servers are back up.~

**Juxtaposition** · 03-20-2011 03:03 PM

Wow, some people know how to be arrogent don't they? Give the guy a break. But instead, I will just write why I disagree with your post:

There's no point in sugarcoating it, especially when they are spreading false information. You'll note that I'm not arrogant towards people with opinions that are actually opinions, nor to people who have intellectual questions. I am only painfully blunt to the ignorant people.

While in a mathematical sense, yes your figures make sense. However from personal experience - I very rarely come across a time where a BRD spell is required, so lets just ignore that. BLU however comes up from time to time, as does NIN but in a sense, if you have a BLM with you - you are pretty much going to get the grellow proc regardless. 90% of time time (oh no! I am going to get slagged cause I used the number 90%!! figure of speach dude, chill.), you are going to get a proc.

You're arguing facts with anecdote. There was a night when I was farming seals and our BLM/BRD triggered grellow four times in a row. Notice that I am not parading around forums declaring that if you have no BRD main in your party that all your BLMs should sub BRD. Point is just because you have a lucky streak one night doesn't mean that you are proccing grellow 90% of the time with NIN + BRD.

Here we are with more percentages. However I will end the red proc argument with one simple thing - MNK cannot proc red apart from Staff - unless you /WAR.

Why is your MNK not sub WAR? NIN is an absolutely terrible sub for MNK and should not be considered except in the most dire of circumstances.

If we are talking percentages - that means you have 15% chance of proc'ing as a MNK. Even as /DNC nin is better at getting red.

However truly, who cares for percentages, you can either proc it, or you can't. End of story.

What are you arguing for? That NIN is better than MNK for red? Yes, MNK is terrible for red, NIN is vastly superior. People care for percentages to maximize their efficiency with what they have available. That's why percentages are important.

Blue = Equipment / Weapons. You want the PLD pants? Then proc Blue. Don't flame people for them wanting gear that they may actually want. Let them gear themselves up however they want.

You didn't understand what I meant. Most of the time, blue is optional, an added bonus if you are able to proc it, but not the point of the run. For the cases that you are actively trying to get the blue proc items, you will enter Shinryuu/pop the NM during blunt o'clock, period. If you don't, you are doing it wrong and wasting your party's time, end of discussion.

I understand you were simply correcting him however, and you are right to say that it isn't true. However:

Who defines what is "Right". There are "better" ways but never "wrong" ways to do things. If the atma / abyssite / gear / seals... w/e they are hunting for drops, then they aren't doing anything "wrong". It's mentalities like this that make the game not-fun and all about politics.

SE defines what is "right" in this situation by virtue of this specific topic being "I don't think you can proc grellow with subjobs." This little triad would be better served with the discussion of NIN + BLM onry. In the end, I don't care how anyone else farms their seals except for two groups: my party and the DNC/NIN + WHM/RDM duo that is popping my NM and taking 15 minutes to kill.

Disagree with you there. /DNC is a great sub for NIN regardless if you have a healer or not.
- Haste samba = hit faster. Now I know you are going to say you get a DA rate of 10% with /WAR which is true, however that's just a personal preference.
- Healing Waltz = get rid of your own status effects by hitting a macro instead of typing an {Auto-Translate} word for your JP healer.
- The difference in damage output between /WAR and /DNC is far too small to flame over. Especially with atmas thrown into the mix.
- Sure you have less procs, but it is by no means a reason to say a /DNC is a gimp subjob.
- Evasion bonus as /DNC is always nice also. There is a massively notable difference with that one.

In the end, both /WAR and /DNC are both circumstantial. I personally solo a lot of things, so the ability to heal myself if sh*t hits the fan is always nice.

Oh dear. Stop trying to justify gimp subs. As I stated before, the only use for /DNC is for suboptimal party setups.
-Haste Samba: Does not make up for the DPS loss from JAs and DA.
-Healing Waltz: Kills your TP. Get a WHM that doesn't suck.
-The marginal healing gained from /DNC is completely irrelevant on nearly all abyssean NMs with a mage healer and completely irrelevant on all NMs with a WHM. The damage and triggers gained by going /WAR is so monumentally huge in abyssea that you are a fool if you don't go /WAR.
-Evasion +22 is completely irrelevant with a healer. If you find that you NEED that +22 Evasion, swapping gear is a better solution compared to gimping yourself.

Like I've stated, the ONLY time you /DNC is with a suboptimal party setup: solo, or NIN + WAR. If you have a mage with you, /WAR is always the better option.

I believe from the original post - the whole argument was that NIN & BLM can proc more GRELLOW. Grellow is a funny looking red if you ask me.

From what I gather, you would be a skilled player, however I would like to finish and say I am totally glad I have not run into you yet (even if you are on my server) because its people with mentalities like yours that I like to avoid.

The manner in which you responded to his/her experience is somewhat uncalled for, and the "wrong" way to go about things.

Let the man/woman play the game how they want to play.

Ps. To all you MNK's out there, MNK is a great tank and never stated NIN is better. Nor do I believe MNK is a better tank then NIN. It comes down to the player's skill, gear, atmas.

The whole argument in and of itself was silly; NIN does not offer much for grellow and practically any job can "get away with" subbing NIN for grellow. The point of my post was to point out fallacies that "vajral" kept making. To be frank, a lot of the stuff he was spouting out was pretty terrible and needed to be corrected. There's a few other things in the thread that I don't agree with, but didn't feel the need to comment on.

My in-game mentality is actually pretty different from my forum or twitter mentality. I have a less tolerance for stupidity when things are posted opposed to being said in-game. I suppose my reasoning is that you can better articulate your points in a forum post/tweet, rather than real time talking. But we're not hear to talk about my mentality, are we?

For the record, I could care less if he goes and plays NIN the "wrong" way. The part I care about is his giving the NIN community a bad name by saying junk like NIN being a better blue proc than MNK or /DNC as a viable party sub.

P.S. MNKs are better tanks than NINs. It does not come down player's skill, gear or atma because we are talking about a class. Discussion cannot take into consideration a particular player's skill, gear or atmas because you can have a terrible MNK go up against a wonderful NIN. Just because that NIN is better than that MNK does not make NIN > MNK. It makes Player A > Player B. Same goes for truly amazing PUPs outparsing mediocre Perle wearing WARs. Doesn't mean that the class PUP is better than the class WAR, it means Perle WAR needs to quit FFXI.

It's a figure of speech, not an actual fact. Which could be easily distinguished from both the original post and my own. Lighten up. No one is posting specific stats here. If someone wanted them, they would have been asked for.

His post was either intentionally or unintentionally designed to troll the original poster's personal experience. Something I strongly don't agree with - I mean what are we talking about here? A game! No reason to get so narky and arrogent.

Please. "man, you don't need a war proccing red, I proc red 90% of the time while subbing dnc, its ez" That statement reeks of ignorance and I'm going to call him out on his BS. If he said, "I feel like I do my fair share of red proccing. Subbing DNC I feel like I get it half the time" I wouldn't have bothered posting. Certainly 50% isn't 38%, but that would be arguing specifics. 38% is a far cry from 90%.

however with a spell duration 1/2 the recast time, it has to be reasonably timed in order to be worth it.

With proper buffs and gear, it drops to about 10-15 seconds of downtime where the buff won't be up. Might even be less, but its been a while since I last played and used Migawari.

I am just defending the poor guy that was originally trolled.

"Poor guy?" He is a terrible poster who does not bother to use basic punctuation or sentence structure and was spouting out pure nonsense. Patch up your bleeding heart and save your breath for someone who deserves it.

**Alderin** · 03-20-2011 04:42 PM

Firstly I would like to say that was a cleaner post and gives me more respect for your opinion.

Originally Posted by Juxtaposition

There's no point in sugarcoating it, especially when they are spreading false information. You'll note that I'm not arrogant towards people with opinions that are actually opinions, nor to people who have intellectual questions. I am only painfully blunt to the ignorant people.

While his original post may not have been bang on the money - the major issue I had was the manner in which you responded to him.