Nin are better tanks now?

[Superchicken]

you topic title is nin are better tanks now?

To answer that simple questiong i'd say yes they are better tanks now with things such as Yonin and the Blade: Hi if you can get a kannagi or even the WoE version and if you need to blink tank stuff and get af3+2 feet can have 5 and 4 shadows from ni ichi utsu. So yes they are better at tanking than they use to be. But even then blink tanking not hardly needed, just throw a mnk in there with his high hp and a whm can pretty much let the mnk face tank and spam cure V and VI on him and never run out of mp.

Now are they better than say a mnk tank in abyssea? Well i'd say depends. What do you need your tank to do. MNK is the choice of the majority for the tank in abyssea. Can ninja tank this stuff as well, sure, but you will see that majority of groups use a mnk to tank abyssea. PLD's rarely seen in abyssea event groups, they pretty much got stuck with coming slash /nin to the exp abyssea pts and hitting 90 then putting their gear in storage due to being told "we tank with monk so dont even bother coming PLD to todays event"

[Faule]

Ninjas certainly have come into their own these days. I can't attribute it to one or two things, but the entirety of these updates have bolstered our damage dealing capabilities in ways we couldn't have imagined at level 75.

Ninjas, in my opinion, were always capable tanks. We were adept at mitigating damage and we were good at holding hate in a lot of situations. The player base felt the survivability of Red Mage and Paladin tanks were superior to that of Ninja, and they got most of the play time. Though I'm certain that could be a lengthy discussion in itself.

Today, we have atmas that boost our damage output along with another tier of Dual Wield we didn't have at level 75. We are now hitting much harder, faster! This is keeping the enemy glued to us due to the sheer hate gain through damage. Couple that with higher Evasion Skill from the level increase and Cruor buffs that up our HP totals to a point where we have a lofty damage cushion, and there's no reason to not use us for tanking.

[Alderin]

The amount of time you spend NOT swinging your katanas while doing JA already makes /DNC the inferior subjob.

-Very true and agree, dancing does reduce slashing time. I did not say it was superior, nor did I say it was equal. I simply said it is not as gimp as it has been proclaimed.

Also, every 1m30s you spend 35% TP and a couple of attack rounds due to JA delay to swing 5% faster.
You're also lacking provoke, not for hate but to pull with. You can argue Animated Flourish but once again, you sacrifice a couple of attack rounds and 10% TP which is more than one attack round because you're probably getting 4.8% TP/swing at most
What's the difference? You're looking at probably 10% less WS frequency at least just due to constant Haste Samba and a lot less swinging due to JA delay. Your damage per swing probably won't be affected much but how much you swing over time is less and your Blade: Jin/Hi averages will be lower without berserk. Blah blah blah... Juxta already said it.

- Nor did I say /DNC's damage will match /WAR.

"They're just katanas" is a stupid 2004 argument. It's because of razed ruins that katanas are part of the top tier weaponry right now. Blade: Jin AND Blade: Hi are both critical damage weaponskills so both WS and TP phase are boosted by crit rate/damage. We live and breathe abyssea right now and thus right now, katanas are very strong.

- As I said, RR is where the damage is essentially coming from with Katanas. Ignoring atmas, Katanas are weak. Yes I know Jin and Hi are both crits. I don't understand your argument with this one. Swap Katanas out with H2h on MNK with RR and you will get out-damaged either way you look at it.. I really don't understand your point on this one - The damage with Katanas come from RR & Ninjas super low dual wield delay. I know that and have said that. What is your point?

You're building such a niche case for /dnc and then saying it's a great subjob when it's only AVERAGE when all the stars align for you. Your whm, if competent enough, is enough to heal you through anything reasonable.

Not building a niche case at all. A lot of this game - due to my time zone has to be played solo or low manned. So /DNC has become a habbit for low man situations when having to rely on less then ordinary party setups. If I am lucky enough to be with a WHM at the time I play, then I would go as /WAR. However /DNC is a great job for survivability and would pick it for a subjob in a solo circumstance anyday.

There's 6 abyssites of merit available to everyone. There's no excuse to not have them all. If you don't get HP cruor buffs in abyssea then something is wrong. With that said, anything with HP can tank. I don't see why you can't just nin/war and not bother casting shadows at all. Your whm has more than enough mp to heal you.

While true, is also not ideal, HP in abyssea is crazy of course, however a tank's job is damage prevention and holding hate off everyone else. A healer's job is to save the day if anything goes astray. (Just an opinion of course). Just because someone has a tower of HP, doesnt mean they can tank godly mobs the way a MNK or NIN can. Sure any job can take a hit, lose HP, get cure bombed. However of course this isnt ideal - even though your preeching about /WAR being the most ideal sub in the world for every circumstance possible and your a n00b if you don't sub it.

Plus, you save gil on shihei. Also, mnk have a really high counter rate. So in reality they avoid more attacks than a nin would.

For starters, merits in expertise and 100k to skill woodworking fixes the Shihei issue if that is such a big problem. Costs of tools shouldnt even come into the equation. Thought we were talking about /DNC vs. /WAR here now? I am confused... This conversation is going in circles.

Now this comment is a joke, I mean believe what you would like to believe however....
- Mnk avoid more attacks then Nin?. I am going to dip into the maths a little here since I got flamed for not doing it earlier.
Nin has a lot more base evasion as Mnk. Everyone knows that. In fact for a Mnk to counter, it has to pass the evasion check and actually get hit. So high evasion = bad counters.

Lets assume both classes are well geared and skilled. The nin will evade 80% of the time and get hit / lose a shadow 20% of the time. (80% was worked out to be the evasion cap - you will always get hit ~20% of the time give or take a few %)
I don't know the exact cap for counter, however let's assume this MNK has atmas like roaring laughter, gear etc that end up with around 80% counter rate (which is damn high, because I have only seen MNK's at 70%. Correct me if I am wrong here for all of you MNK's.

This in a sense means that the counter rate for MNK =/= Nin's evasion. (Numbers could be a little off - don't know full specifics).

Oh wait I am missing something here aren't I?

Oh right! Even if the Nin didn't have +2 feet, he would still avoid an extra 7 melee hits every 60 seconds worst case sceneario..(ignoring TP as MNK's can't counter TP as far as I am aware)

So in response to your comment - No I do not agree with the above statement. MNK cannot avoid as many hits as Ninja. What MNK hias that NIN doesn't is the tower of HP behind it. BOTH jobs have their place.

But who cares? /dnc works, /pup works, /smn works, /brd works, /drg works, etc. Just because it works doesn't mean it's good.

Now your just being ignorant. For certain situations, /DNC is an ideal sub. Yes, /WAR is better for overall DPS & Procs - I will agree with you, however to call /DNC a gimp subjob is far from the truth. /DNC has their place on many occasions.

There is no wrong subjob but better = better and gimp = gimp. It's all so very insignificant because of abyssea. You could be nin90/smn1 and still get a Kannagi just duo with you and your whm and you wouldn't have a problem, maybe it'll take you one or two days longer due to losing /war for those red proc ws, so all it costs is time. But I wouldn't say /smn1 is good just because it worked for me.

No you are right there - no subjob is wrong. Nin/Drg for all I care, and yes there are "better" or "more ideal" subjobs depending on the situation. I personally wouldn't attempt to solo Briareas as an example with /WAR (even though I am sure it's possible) as I have with /DNC simply for survivability purposes.

As most of the things I personally do for myself are solo'd or at most duo'd - I will pretty much always go as /DNC simply because it has more survivability then /WAR. Sure for LS events or big events I will go for /WAR simply for DPS - however as I will repeat and close with - /DNC is not as gimp as you make it out to be.

On a final note, I am sick of this thread - because there are arguments for both cases and this could go on forever.

I will continue to use /DNC when I see the situation suits it, and you can go believing it's gimp all you like. I can assure you there are a lot more things you can solo as /DNC then there are as /WAR. That lads, is why the job is not gimp.

Caio

[Cursed]

NIN isn't a better tank. PLD is just a bad tank now and others are filling in the vacume.

[wish12oz]

Ninja was always a good tank when you could DD tank things, which basically means anything in the T or weaker range as opposed to the VT-IT range. It just so happens that now, everything is weak, so DD tanking is the way to go.

Every job has their strengths too, monk has insane HP for instance. Stuff that would 1 shot your ninja, a monk would laugh at. But for mobs with hate reset a ninja will do better then a monk, because ninja can build enmity faster starting from nothing. Also a good ninja can avoid taking damage better then a monk, they have slow, blind, good evasion and more shadows.

In the end all this discussion is sort of pointless though, several jobs are good tanks now, what it really comes down to is the person playing the character, and what sort of gear sets/atmas/abyssites they have. Player skill and how much they have bothered to go out and accomplish/bothered to learn about game mechanics is what matters most now, not job. Give me a war or drk subbing sam with a full DR set/merit abyssites/etc over a pink monk with a twilight belt any day! (`ヘ´)

[vajral]

really, maybe i had no good experience with mnk tanks, but i don't get all this excitement about it
wow, you can go mnk + whm and duo wathever you want, the mnk keep blindly hitting and the whm spams cure, at the end of the fight you see no drops and go home happy!
as a nin, i nealy never need a whm to cure me. i usually duo with a blm, we proc yellow and red 90% of the times, with stun and violent flourish i hardly take any dmg, hate reset is not an issue, just throw a hyoton san.
i'm not underestimating mnks, but for low man situation in aby, i'd rather go with a multi purpose tank and a multi purpose healer, than with a big punching ball followed by an ambulance.

the problem is always the same, /nin? no provoke waltzes and so on
/war or /dnc? no shadows
u want both? NIN/DNC and DNC/NIN are the way to go

that said, i'm sure in particular situations MNK is unbeatable, but in abyssea nin and blm can duo nearly everything, and they get better drops

[Faule]

Their boon is counterstance and perfect counter. Consider it like an unending supply of shadows for melee attacks.

Couple that with every blue proc during 22:00 to 7:00 and they will go home with drops. Red is a different story. It's where we as Ninjas shine.

[vajral]

what about grellow?

[Faule]

What about it.

[vajral]

with a mnk and whm duo it will unlikely happen. nin + blm is a different planet
i repeat, i'm sure mnk is a great choice for some kind of NMs, but for farming, i'd definitely go nin
and i repeat again, no need for a huge hp pool when you're hardly taking dmg and what can oneshot you nets you a sweet 0 dmg
as usual everything is situational, i just state that nin is a way more versatile choice