The Decline of FFXI: Forums, Gameplay and Nostalgia

[RaenRyong]

So-called "hardcores" are not those you want to cater to anyway. Not only do they typically represent a very obnoxious demographic, but content such as old HNM which is designed for them only benefits them, whereas content anyone can participate in benefits everybody. Epeen players should be ignored.

[Glamdring]

Personally, I think they'll never change the Aby entrance cap, but they'll "easy mode" everything to get there. It's a shame really. There was a real sense of accomplishment involved in beating the content I had to go through to get to end-game. I love my Raja's ring. I still use my ACP,ASA and MKT gear on my beast and my pup. I found the synthetic Atma I got for completeing what I have done useful until I got the Stronger Atmas for beating certain NMs and I still use them situationally.

If they add more content, but require pre-reqs of beating some of the old I think more players would develop an appreciation for the world outside Abyssea. You want those outposts for tele, you want that rank 10 in your home nation, a Raja's, a beastly earring, a temperance torque, etc.

[Anewie]

Sorry this is like 4 pages late, I went to bed. On the topic of quitting if the game became to stressful? Yeah, I would. a Game is not worth uneccessary stress all the time. if its something small like "I didn't get drop" its not a big deal. I don't think i can find a lot of things that would honestly stress me so much to quite though...But i've never blamed nor condemned you for quitting, in fact I've mentioned its likely the best choice you could have made. I agree with your decision.

Also! You really need to laugh more! I thought it was pretty funny. Though, actually resorting to trying to dig up dirt on my FFXIAH profile to add to our little conversation, That hurt bad, Luckilyi had Migawari up. something we didn't have back at 75 ^_~

1) if its about my BLU Gear. I'm working on +1/+2 gear for it. Which is better than i can say for most players. I used it for Targeting the Captain and i rarely play the job, But I'm still bothering to try and gear it, and at least i have all my spells :|

2) If its about my Comment. Thats an Inside joke with my friends, but I'm sure you took it differently, or thought i was being serious, right? Yah, You did. Don't lie to me. I can tell!

3) If you want to judge me based on a my current gear shown, thats your prerogative. Also I haven't updated those gear-sets in months (especially PLD and RDM), Judge me on my THF, WAR, and MNK, the 3 jobs that I've actually succeeded in getting gear for so far. Seal drop rates suck, but theyre easy to farm, So i'm working on it !

4) Gear is not everything, While some may lead you to believe differently, I know my jobs, I know how to play them, and i know what I'm doing, Which is more than i can say for half the game. If you think something "...and i could say a lot but i wont" based on a AH page, you yourself are far more "Bad" elitist than i ever am. You mention irony, I think its ironic that you say the things you say, then turn around and try to find as much dirt on me as possible. Here i thought we were enjoying a pleasant conversation?

I certainly didn't try to dig up dirt on you or stalk your FFXIAH page for information to sling in an online internet 'conversation'. shame on you good madam.


See now, You could have said something like "LOL, Yah, and we'll be surrounded by the idiots who can't tell its a dying game and blindly accept their casual fantasy XIV" and i would have chuckled. Cause all this time I could have sworn you told me this isn't stressing you, and that we weren't "Arguing". I thought you'd handle a joke better, even if it was slighlty aimed in your direction.

Secondly, Yes, I've been playing since NA Release, I've enjoyed this game for years, I have a life, a GF, My own apartment, and a job too, So you can't pull a RL Card next response ! I started when i was about 15-ish, I'm now 22, Full time job, and i love what the game is now.

Thirdly, I don't mind if everyone is not like me, Its never been about that, I'm not sure where this even came into play...

Fourthly, on Rani/Shinryu, I didn't say constantly, i said "Occasionally". I see shouts for 6-man Shinryu's often. Also, I said nothing about un-brewed Rani's. Read back to that post and you can see clearly i only mention Shinryu in context with "no brews". Am i assuming? Yah, Probably, When i see "Shinryu Do you need it? WHM, Can i have it? 5/6" I assume they're trying to kill it without a brew, or why would you bring 6 people? I admit i assume its for non-brew. I could be wrong, but it would be an honest mistake.

I'm just not accustomed to people bringing 6 others to an easily brewable fight without the intentions of doing it un-brewed. Cause it feels like thats a lot of unnecessary jobs/lot competition.

Also, You need to learn the difference between Snarky and anger. I quite enjoy a debate, or conversation, sometimes my sarcastic side shows yes i know, i slip up. I try not to be a sarcastic freak online. But I figured since you, yourself told me you don't get "upset" or "stressed" about these things, You might laugh it off. Clearly, one of us is wrong. Either I misjudged your character, Or you're lying to me when you say you don't get stressed over forums. When I talk to someone who assures me they aren't angry over it, i assume then they can take jokes.

Also i only care about you posting on this forums because I'm worried about your well being clearly, You can be so hurtful sometimes.
As a Side note, I Don't "attack" The hardcore. If you check out the "Will there be any new HNMs?" thread, I actually quite understand the ENTIRE mindset of a hardcore. Their Achievements mean nothing because everyone else can achieve it. I understand the game has lost its meaning to those types of people. However, They're no saints either. They condemn and blame casuals for every single problem in the game, and don't tend to realize that Purely "Hardcore" games suck almost as bad as "Purely casual" Games. I've always believed there needs to be a balance of Hardcore and Casual goals.

But if a game decides it wants content to be user-friendly and accessible to anyway, i respect those types of decisions, because its a hard one to make. You upset Hardcores but you make Casuals happy.

Theres a lot more to be said, But in the interest of not making too big of a giant post i'll stop here.

OH! BTW if you quote me, Edit my post down to 1 word. I'd like to see what word you chose. (Also i have a strange feeling even though this thread has turned into back-and-forht's, We should end this soon!)

Thank you so much for the elaborate post Karby! Debate? I'd ask you what exactly we're debating about but you'll probably ramble on about random stuff agaiin and throw in some sarcastic remarks instead. I know I asked you before what was so inaccessable for you back at 75 besides "lolHNM" and I didn't get a response, but it's okay! I didn't even bother to read all of your posts about your irl and all that, lol. You're the only one who had the mindset of irl having anything to do with.. final fantasy forum and ffxi. You're the only one mentioning stress and a video game.

If your definition of a debate is instead of answering questions directly and intelligently, and instead making off the wall and sacarstic comments in a thread you have said several times over you don't agree with, okie dokie!

You've mentioned stress and irl a lot lately. Most people don't get stressed out by video games and i'm only assuming you either use the IRL card or have had it used against you, in which case, not all of us are that immature. Also, none of us care about your irl.

You seem to want the last word really badly, though! You seem to have a really hard time letting things go! Let me help you out with that.

[Karbuncle]

Its never about the last word >___> What are you my mom?

I just feel the need to defend myself when i see assaults one way or the other. Rather they be direct, Or passive aggressive~

Truthfully if you had left the FFXIAH stalking part out, I'd probably of never responded

[RaenRyong]

If they add more content, but require pre-reqs of beating some of the old I think more players would develop an appreciation for the world outside Abyssea. You want those outposts for tele, you want that rank 10 in your home nation, a Raja's, a beastly earring, a temperance torque, etc.

Would have to be one hell of a reward for me to want a Beastly Earring O_o

[Zaknafein]

Anewie,

Love your posts in this thread. Your view points are 98% my thoughts on those issue's. Why casual people balk, and get defensive anytime a veteran posts asking for some challenging content outside abyssea is always amusing imo. Like having content without atmas, abyssite, and the option to "just brew it" is blasphemy. Or the usual line of "if you want a challenge just don't get atma's or buffs." Why they can't grasp the concept of killing things w/o buffs is not rewarding because those same targets are killed by people using those crutches baffles me.

I certainly hope when 99 hits there will be a two tiered option for End Game the way Einherjar was to kings. Only this would be geared toward Casual/hardcore. Hopefully it can be implemented simultaneously, and not retroactively this time around. I am very happy that casual gamers have had the option to experience more of the game. I have helped many, and accepted a decent amount into my linkshell over the past 7 months.

That being said. The game itself just isn't as rewarding as it used to be. Sure gearing out my jobs, and my members is cool. Although none of it feels like it was an accomplishment. While casual players are basking in this now, because they were denied that for years they fail to realize they are headed to the same conclusion as vets who are bored. With the easy mode floodgate wide open it is only a matter of time (not as long as u think either) till they have geared their jobs, and find the abyssea/TotM are not as fun when you have everything you wanted already.

Considering SE is trying to re use as much as possible I still hope they will incorporate a new, and improved PvP. The time, and resources spent on say converting the coliseum in WG to a PvP arena would continue to pay dividends far into the future. People who have all the gear they want and sit aimlessly in town, or staring at their moogle spin would always have the option to do that. It doesn't need "elite" gear as rewards. Could be as simple as fancy town gear, and furnishings that are only obtainable from there. Being able to go participate in or just go watch/bet on 1vs1 or 3vs3 & 6vs6 matches would be great entertainment.

I am keeping an optimistic outlook that SE will incorporate both the Pvp, and a two tiered difficulty option for the 99 End game experience. However if at least one of these options doesn't materialize when we cross that bridge I don't see vets sticking around, and casual gamers will not be far behind. Once they've exhausted the things to do, and gear to obtain because everything is handed out like door prizes nowadays.

I know I personally have no desire to begin a new MMO ff14 included. Even if it hadn't been released in the horrific state it was, and was a solid product it would make no difference. I <3 FFXI, and have put many years/effort into it. With any luck SE will see that catering to one side or the other was never the correct methodology. There needs to be content for everyone to enjoy, and take pride in. /crosses fingers

[Karbuncle]

Anewie,

Love your posts in this thread. Your view points are 98% my thoughts on those issue's. Why casual people balk, and get defensive anytime a veteran posts asking for some challenging content outside abyssea is always amusing imo. Like having content without atmas, abyssite, and the option to "just brew it" is blasphemy. Or the usual line of "if you want a challenge just don't get atma's or buffs." Why they can't grasp the concept of killing things w/o buffs is not rewarding because those same targets are killed by people using those crutches baffles me.

I don't think I've heard anyway say the bolded complaint... if they did god save them.

99% of the "Casuals" you're referring too likely want fresh out-of-abyssea content as much as everyone else. We simply don't want Content that is only accessible to certain people who, face it, Live on FFXI.

We don't like Abyssea cause its "Super-Easy-Mode", We like it because its accessible and enjoyable by everyone, even if they aren't the absolute best.

For instance, I enjoyed einherjar, Because while difficult, everyone had a chance to participate. I did not like Kings because it was content not everyone could enjoy. It was a 1-a-day shot at competing for a mob. While that left a sense of "Accomplishment" in claiming/getting a drop, I don't think the game should focus around that sort of content.

You can make enjoyable, challenging, meaningful content without Atma/etc (Which i even hope they do in the future, i really do), but that hasn't been the complaint of every Anti-Abyssean person. Just like "wah i want atmas" isn't the complaint of every pro-abyssea person. I've heard a lot of complaints (not necessarily from you, or anyone in this thread) over wanting "Challenging" Content, When in reality they just want to go back to 21-24hr HNMs, Cockblocking servers, and botting it up while Afk 58 out of 60 minutes per hour "playing".

These are just examples. Old FFXI was fun, I enjoyed Nyzul, Salvage, Einherjar, Sky, Sea a lot. Some of it got boring and Tedious over time (as does everything, even Abyssea), But i also enjoy new FFXI!

I hope pretty much what you do, that down the line we have casual content, and a little difficult "hardcore" content. While i Hope hardcore content is at least widely accessible (Read: not world spawn NMs), i hope its limited too. FFXI Should appeal to both audiences, but the problem is too much of one, and one group gets angry, too much of the other, and the other group gets angry.

While i hope for balance, its hard to achieve.

[Akujima]

As a Side note, I Don't "attack" The hardcore. If you check out the "Will there be any new HNMs?" thread, I actually quite understand the ENTIRE mindset of a hardcore. Their Achievements mean nothing because everyone else can achieve it. I understand the game has lost its meaning to those types of people. However, They're no saints either. They condemn and blame casuals for every single problem in the game, and don't tend to realize that Purely "Hardcore" games suck almost as bad as "Purely casual" Games. I've always believed there needs to be a balance of Hardcore and Casual goals.

Actually, what I got from this is that you think each and every single hardcore player was a jerk, which is completely untrue. Just because someone enjoys the rarity of certain things, which would make them feel like they accomplished a daunting task, does not in anyway, mean they are a nasty person who looks down upon others. I've met many "decked out" (so to speak), players who were friendly and nice, but also had really rare equipment back in the day.

Saying that completely hardcore games suck just as much as complete casual games is another subjective term. But what I think people are confused about, is why the game suddenly took a 180 in the other direction. It feels nothing like it used to, and for some people feelings matter, even if it does involve feelings towards a game.

But I'll reiterate myself again, in that what they should have done, was keep the same style of play and added an Abyssea~like scenario for the casual gamers. A scenario that offered equal yet different rewards WITHOUT completely wiping out the previous style of play. But now the balance is tipped in favor of "the casuals", and "the hardcore" are being mostly, if not entirely left out.

There is a point to this thread, and that is to hear both sides of the story. It IS possible to make a game that caters to both the "hardcore" and "casual". In my opinion, the past days of FFXI had everything a great MMO should have, but it was just missing one piece of the puzzle. What was shocking to see, is that SE decided to do a complete overhaul and cater to the casuals, forgetting about the rest of us who already enjoyed the game the way it was.

All in all, that move from them wasn't necessary, and that's the reason I made this thread, so people can discuss their personal views about where the game is going. If that's not important, then I don't know what is.

[Karbuncle]

Actually, what I got from this is that you think each and every single hardcore player was a jerk, which is completely untrue. Just because someone enjoys the rarity of certain things, which would make them feel like they accomplished a daunting task, does not in anyway, mean they are a nasty person who looks down upon others. I've met many "decked out" (so to speak), players who were friendly and nice, but also had really rare equipment back in the day.

Saying that completely hardcore games suck just as much as complete casual games is another subjective term. But what I think people are confused about, is why the game suddenly took a 180 in the other direction. It feels nothing like it used to, and for some people feelings matter, even if it does involve feelings towards a game.

But I'll reiterate myself again, in that what they should have done, was keep the same style of play and added an Abyssea~like scenario for the casual gamers. A scenario that offered equal yet different rewards WITHOUT completely wiping out the previous style of play. But now the balance is tipped in favor of the casuals, and "the hardcore" are being mostly, if not entirely left out.

There is a point to this thread, and that is to hear both sides of the story. It IS possible to make a game that caters to both the "hardcore" and "casual". In my opinion, the past days of FFXI had everything a great MMO should have, but it was just missing one piece of the puzzle. What was shocking to see, is that SE decided to do a complete overhaul and cater to the casuals, forgetting about the rest of us who already enjoyed the game the way it was.

All in all, that move from them wasn't necessary, and that's the reason I made this thread, so people can discuss their personal views about where the game is going. If that's not important, then I don't know what is.

Then you're wrong.

Cause I considered myself "Hardcore" too way back when. Before i got a job/life/etc, I played like, almost every waking moment. Levels multiple jobs and was almost always doing some event (Limbus, Sky, Sea, Etc).

Now a days thats changed. Frankly, If you thought i was saying that, you clearly missed Raenryong's post, Cause hes actually saying that. I don't think all Hard-core people are bad players, Sure, Most of you don't help your case when your first response to a negative comment is a report or rage-fest explosion of text passively aggressivly blaming Causuals for everything, epitome of hypocrisy if i do say so myself.

(not that you're doing that right now, but in this thread, look through it, may have missed some of it.)

So yah, Thats not what I'm saying at all. If it came off that way, I'll word it better next time.

[Anewie]

Anewie,

Love your posts in this thread. Your view points are 98% my thoughts on those issue's. Why casual people balk, and get defensive anytime a veteran posts asking for some challenging content outside abyssea is always amusing imo. Like having content without atmas, abyssite, and the option to "just brew it" is blasphemy. Or the usual line of "if you want a challenge just don't get atma's or buffs." Why they can't grasp the concept of killing things w/o buffs is not rewarding because those same targets are killed by people using those crutches baffles me.

I certainly hope when 99 hits there will be a two tiered option for End Game the way Einherjar was to kings. Only this would be geared toward Casual/hardcore. Hopefully it can be implemented simultaneously, and not retroactively this time around. I am very happy that casual gamers have had the option to experience more of the game. I have helped many, and accepted a decent amount into my linkshell over the past 7 months.

That being said. The game itself just isn't as rewarding as it used to be. Sure gearing out my jobs, and my members is cool. Although none of it feels like it was an accomplishment. While casual players are basking in this now, because they were denied that for years they fail to realize they are headed to the same conclusion as vets who are bored. With the easy mode floodgate wide open it is only a matter of time (not as long as u think either) till they have geared their jobs, and find the abyssea/TotM are not as fun when you have everything you wanted already.

Considering SE is trying to re use as much as possible I still hope they will incorporate a new, and improved PvP. The time, and resources spent on say converting the coliseum in WG to a PvP arena would continue to pay dividends far into the future. People who have all the gear they want and sit aimlessly in town, or staring at their moogle spin would always have the option to do that. It doesn't need "elite" gear as rewards. Could be as simple as fancy town gear, and furnishings that are only obtainable from there. Being able to go participate in or just go watch/bet on 1vs1 or 3vs3 & 6vs6 matches would be great entertainment.

I am keeping an optimistic outlook that SE will incorporate both the Pvp, and a two tiered difficulty option for the 99 End game experience. However if at least one of these options doesn't materialize when we cross that bridge I don't see vets sticking around, and casual gamers will not be far behind. Once they've exhausted the things to do, and gear to obtain because everything is handed out like door prizes nowadays.

I know I personally have no desire to begin a new MMO ff14 included. Even if it hadn't been released in the horrific state it was, and was a solid product it would make no difference. I <3 FFXI, and have put many years/effort into it. With any luck SE will see that catering to one side or the other was never the correct methodology. There needs to be content for everyone to enjoy, and take pride in. /crosses fingers

I really believe the people who are getting defensive, are typically people and players who aren't just casual but not very good players in general. Not very good meaning, they are unable to play any job, let alone their main job, with any amount of focus or dedication. When events are mindless, (which is fun sometimes, which is whyy i continue to support abyssea) it really makes no difference how a person is really playing. I personally don't have a real issue with brews. I might make jokes and etc to prove my point about how mindless and effortless it is, but brews are part of abyssea.

Abyssea was meant, to be mindless and effortless. It was for UNDER-casuals. I'mma call them that now. Getting gear ina byssea wasn't supposed to be "omg i accomplished this." These rewards were meant for the under-casuals who had long been shafted from the HNM scene and various endgame activities. I actually support brewing/afking/sucking/idkwtfim doing in abyssea.

That, to me, is what made abyssea so refreshing and cool. I have a life too. I can't always devote time to doing thing's that require lots of time. When I had the time, I'd make time for my goals. Sometimes though, I'd just like to mess around and RELAX without focusing or being dedicated, WHILE still getting some neat toys.

My issue and the issue with 80-90% of BG (this is based on observation, not facts) is that after 9 abyssea zones, there is no new real endgame content still. The game atm is basically a walk to lvl30 and then in my honest opinion, its just mindless content from there. Sure, u can exp the normal way (oh wait, no u cant really, because no one really parties outside) or chose to do everything the more difficult way. That however, doesnt make you a better player, it just means you're retarded.

Do I want content Karbuncle can't do!!!? Or not have access too!?!? No.. Idc about other players who aren't interested in what I'm interested. OMG you're having fun and just LOVE only doing abyssea and shooting through things. K. Well just an fyi, I enjoy that content too.

Another thing to note to all the people who keeps saying "the game was inaccessable at 75!". Get a clue. The only thing inaccessable was HNMs and HNMs outside trophy stuff and enjoying camping, meant almost nothing. Einherjar,salvage,nyzul assaults and every other "endgame" activity was more than accessable.


The problem was not accessability. The problem was, people who weren't good players, who could focus (notice i said, could. It doesnt mean they had to play ffxi like a job) didn't get in groups and they didn't get gear. They didn't get the rewards because of they didn't try or care too. That's the only logical explination for not doing any of the many very accessable and casual events.

Abyssea isnt just a casual event, it allows you to gain rewards and gear even when you are terrible, obnoxious and dont know wtf. Before at 75, even in freakin dynamis, you had to focus somewhat and couldn't just do silly things if yo wanted to survive. Abyssea is a double edged sword in that, sure, its nice and all but it promotes sucking basically. It encourages it. Did we need any event like this? I'd say yes based on the fact that even the casual stuff at 75, u had to focus. Even the best groups couldnt just stroll through dyna xarc and afk whenever. Its very "hand-it-you" content. It just is.

There are 9 abyssea zones. If you are just so terrible, and you have such a hard life.. That you can't do anything in game that requires the same amount of focus and strategic effort that is equivalent to salvage, dynamis, einherjar, nyzul isk @ 75, then really... Enjoy the nine zones.


You can label it inaccessable, blame cheaters or your irl but those are scapegoats for the fact that you have no drive, no ambition, you probably aren't a very skilled player (i say that respectfully) and you're not a team player. You don't work well on your job or in groups, and you simply don't want content that requires you to do so.


Fact check, some of us want to try and feel accomplished. It has nothing to do with wanting to better than you. We don't care about you. You care about us.