[DEV1010] Pet job adjustments

[Korpg]

That wasn't a question. All top pet jobs surpass the average WAR.

You got proof to back that assertion up?

[Alhanelem]

Now, I know i never invite SMNs anymore as "Gimp healers", i invite them as a DD, and while it may not be much, a SMN who is meleeing with their pet is doing more damage than a SMN who isn't meleeing, assuming they're both of equal intelligence and gear, using proper macros.

So, as a SMN-DD Standpoint, Meleeing with your pet is better than not. little in this game severely needs you to limit their TP, but of course, Situational sh*t is situational, Meleeing wont always be the best way, but for your run-of-the-mill Exp parties, and NMs without devastating AoEs, its actually better.

Pretty much how I feel. I do think SM can be played many different ways and all of them can be useful. That siad, the SMN has a wide range of tools at its disposal and it's shortsighted at best to just declare one playstyle the best and anything else is gimp, which is what Dallas does.

I can't be bothered if you don't have any ideas.

Can't be bothered to what? And I do have ideas. But I don't post them in your presence because it will just turn into a thread about how great you are and how you're right and everyone else except you and people who directly follow your philosophy is wrong. I talk about how I use merit pacts on this one NM, you say nothing useful and just say "oh that's gimp, you're gimping yourself if u don't melee it with DD atma." You're so blinded by how awesome you think you are that you can't consider that there are other ways of doing things.

I just don't want new SMNs out there to think this is the gospel (as Dallas is preaching it as to be) and end up creating more havoc than harmony.

+1. It's a strong and useful tool, but we shouldn't be making out anyone who doesn't practice it to be poor players.

[Dallas]

You got proof to back that assertion up?

That's the nice thing about this exchange. You reached your conclusion a long time ago without asking for proof. Here's what I will do for you: Hver 90 DOT is 7.5% less than Ukon 90 DOT. What "average WAR" weapon do you want to defend?

Can't be bothered to what? And I do have ideas.

I will have to take your word for it that your ideas are less worthy of +1 posts than what you do feel is important to write.

[Korpg]

That's the nice thing about this exchange. You reached your conclusion a long time ago without asking for proof. Here's what I will do for you: Hver 90 DOT is 7.5% less than Ukon 90 DOT. What "average WAR" weapon do you want to defend?

What I stated was common fact. What you are giving everyone is your conjecture. There is a difference between the two.

How do you get your numbers? How in the world can you get 95% hit rate on Hver? Even with food the best you can get is 85% on anything important. My gimped Great Sword can hit with more accuracy than a capped and merited SMN can with Staff. It doesn't have to do with skill either, it has to do mainly with accuracy gear. SMNs don't have much for Acc+ gear. Peacock Charm/Amulet, Snipers+1/Adder Ring, Potent Belt (kills some of your haste though, but you can get 21/23% haste without belt slot anyway, right?). Can't think of anything else that gives Acc for SMN though. Maybe its because, you know, SMNs don't really melee that much? I mean yeah, Nirvana has +30 Acc on it, but, we all know you don't have that, so how do you figure you get all this acc gear to compensate for SMNs bad melee skill to be able to do this whole "7.5% lets DOT than Ukon 90" thing?

You still haven't posted your 21/23% haste gear, 7% double attack, and all that "uber" gear you state you have to make your staff melee worthy...

[Malamasala]

Maybe its because, you know, SMNs don't really melee that much?

You got that backwards. SMN don't melee because SE never adds any armors for the job. We are in the situation 2006 PUPs were, with only mage gear options. And they keep failing at each and every update year after year, while they quickly boosted PUPs up to god levels.

The guy in charge of Summoner updates is the history's worst game developer and should be fired post haste. How can you be so dumb that you give WHM and BLM armors to a job without spells? The only thing a Summoner has, is an avatar and a staff. Even a five year old would understand that melee stats is the way to go.

Heck, Summoner hasn't even been treated as a real job since it was added. It is viewed as that cool storyline job with fireworks. What was our first armor? Artificat Armor, and it was a failure. Second? Relic Armor. Third? Austere. Fourth? Empyrean Armor. That's 4 armor sets in 7+ years. We get 5 pieces of armor every second year. Ignored much?

PS. There isn't a single Summoner armor in today's list of new synergy augment armors. There is BLM armors wearable by SMN, but why'd we wear those when they most likely can't get 4 Summoner related augments to make up for the useless BLM stats.

[Dallas]

What I stated was common fact. What you are giving everyone is your conjecture. There is a difference between the two.

The difference is I don't need to ask for a haste gear build. Zelus/Tern/Goliard/Nashira/ASA, which you would know if you looked where I told you to look. Common facts about melee SMN are available because I posted them.

Hver 90 is 300% better at melee than some lazy SMN weapon like Soulscourge. The average WAR is lazy, just like most SMN. I asked you to pick an "average WAR" weapon for a reason. I trust you to pick something a lazy person can get. That weapon will have a measurable level of gimp compared to Ukon 90, and in turn, to Hver 90.

"Common facts" used to claim 20% accuracy, drain the WHM completely of MP through TP feeding, and my favorite "0 mp Spirit Takers." I didn't work that hard to destroy those. I'll take your 85% accuracy at face value even though you probably made that up. It's not as important as you think.

[Glamdring]

oh, Acc is important. I'm an elf, I can't hit the ground reliably... while taking a leak!

But seriously, smn does suffer in the melee department, not so much from acc or low, slow damage compared to other jobs, but because even a blm takes a hit better. If you wanna melee go for it, I've never cared as long as you are fulfilling your role in the party build. But you can't fulfill it dead so you better watch that because if you are killing the pt I'll boot you while you are dead without even a moment's regret. It's called priorities, I doubt I invited you for your vast melee prowess to my pt, I invited you for what your pet can do and (usually) to back-up heal. If you can accomplish anything melee, good for you, but I look at it as a bonus, not an expectation.

Your avatars can benefit from Dd Atma, or many others for that matter. You need one for refresh at least to recover from what you use with bloodpacts and the like, even with all your other MP tools if the pt is moving at an acceptable pace, so that will gimp you a bit; solo I say do what you feel.

[Korpg]

The difference is I don't need to ask for a haste gear build. Zelus/Tern/Goliard/Nashira/ASA, which you would know if you looked where I told you to look. Common facts about melee SMN are available because I posted them.

Zelus: 8% Haste (hat)
Tern Set: 6% Haste (cape/neck/waste)
Goliard: 4% Haste (body)
Nashira: 3% Haste (feet/hands)
ASA: 2% Double Attack/4% Haste. Assuming you got those specific stats on them.
Knowing you, you would wear a Raja's Ring for melee SMN. Maybe an Acc+ ring.

So, your total stats so far is 25% Haste (wow, even your changing numbers were still wrong) and 2% double attack (which really helps you out alot).

Adding Pole Strap gives you 4% double attack. Still don't know your earrings, but that covers every slot that you could equip with acc+ gear on pretty much. That means with your 351 (giving you 8/8 merits on that one) staff skill, you are only adding +13 (as much as +17) accuracy. Meaning, anything that is IT or greater, you are wiffing about 20~25% of the time. And you still compare yourself to "average" WARs, who can get 95% accuracy rate without even trying?

Real effective melee rating if you ask me. Lets also look at your attack while we are at it.

Hmm, +3 from Tern alone? Thats really going to help out a lot with DoT. Unless you wear Att+ earrings.

Hver 90 is 300% better at melee than some lazy SMN weapon like Soulscourge. The average WAR is lazy, just like most SMN. I asked you to pick an "average WAR" weapon for a reason. I trust you to pick something a lazy person can get. That weapon will have a measurable level of gimp compared to Ukon 90, and in turn, to Hver 90.

A WAR with a Byakko's Axe could out damage you with your setup. Including Avatar. And thats a "gimp" WAR.

"Common facts" used to claim 20% accuracy, drain the WHM completely of MP through TP feeding, and my favorite "0 mp Spirit Takers." I didn't work that hard to destroy those. I'll take your 85% accuracy at face value even though you probably made that up. It's not as important as you think.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt when I said 85% accuracy rate. Also, got to love the bolded part.

If you don't think Accuracy is important, go level an actual melee job. Like DRK.

What is the point in swinging if you can't make sure you hit at least 90% of the time? Even gimp melees hit 90% of the time.

[Dallas]

To clarify, I'm going to ignore that 3 items you have used in your calculations have wrong numbers. You forgot Brutal entirely. It's not important, because the person who will melee for DD already has the gear.

Instead, I'm going to wonder how in all your efforts to prove SMN can't hit the broad side of a barn (in Abyssea, where all the barns are) you ignored the DEX modifier to accuracy? RR Atma + Cruor buffs is upwards of +90 DEX. Add that to the 80ish I have natively, and my hit rate is at least 40% better than your calculation, without gear. Capped? It's pretty obvious I am. That has nothing to do with why it isn't important, btw.

So, to be clear, you want to commit to a gimp WAR using an axe that is 26% less DOT than Hver 90, not even considering the high percentage ODD aftermath? You want to argue a weapon half as strong, but in the hands of a WAR, will outperform a SMN? Very well, my attack was 530ish last time I checked. Describe how to double that WAR's output.

[Korpg]

To clarify, I'm going to ignore that 3 items you have used in your calculations have wrong numbers. You forgot Brutal entirely. It's not important, because the person who will melee for DD already has the gear.

Which 3 items did I use in my calculations with wrong numbers? Was it Tern, with a set bonus of 6% haste?
Zelus, which is Evasion-5 Haste+8%?
Goliard Saio, which has Haste +4%, among other unimportant (but still not melee worthy) stats?

Nashira and ASA has 1 less Haste % than I originally reported, being that I didn't look either up when I wrote that, just going off of memory. I do know that the DA was correct though, seeing so many PLDs wearing DA/Phy- pants....

But, to be clear, you want to commit to a SMN who's main WS of choice is one that does 0 damage to a mob, against a WAR, even with a weaker axe (but you want to commit to Abyssea, so lets do that too) but doing a WS that crits...with atmas that increases crit rate and damage.....and say that they have 26% less DOT?

Yeah, keep going with that. Just remember I'm talking about a gimp WAR, with a very outdated axe, being able to out DOT you.

Oh, and if you want. Wearing a GA, my WAR can get 595 attack naked. Thats right, naked. Forget all that + attack gear I have, or food, or cruor buffs, I have more attack than you do even fully buffed up. Plus Berserk. Lets not forget Job Abilities. I, and most other WARs, can break the 999 cap very easy. Can you?