[DEV1010] Pet job adjustments

[Dallas]

You don't play like Dallas, you're a gimp noob!

Please read the posts in order. Thanks! This thread was made because all pet jobs are inherently gimp, forcing players to think that being gimp is by design. I don't think I accused any gimpiness in this thread of being the fault of noobs. Mediocrity has always been a goal of veterans.

I'm holding back because the summoner is simply stronger than the avatar. Think of it like DDs subbing /NIN for shadows. That's where melee SMN has arrived. It is unacceptable for a RNG to fire their bow less, and it is unacceptable for a SMN to discard the only improving portion of their damage.

If being the best at what you do doesn't interest you, you don't have to follow me. You should know that means never tanking in Abyssea either.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

I've actually seen Heavenly Strike peak around 11,000 thanks to set bonus

SMN is a great job, but the 45 second BP timer is too restricting

Yes, how dare they make you wait 45 whole seconds to do another 11,000 damage. You should be able to do 11,000 damage every ten seconds, nay, every second if you feel like it.

...You're talking about something that's 2-3 times stronger than the strongest nuke in the game (for no additional MP) AND puts no enmity on you and you're crying about 45 seconds of recast? Sheesh.

Go cry to the THFs, who rely on one minute JA timers that can't be reduced by gear at all. (Actually... if they can make -JA timer gear for one job, why can't they make it for two? That might help some of THF's problems without making it less THF-like. But that's off topic for this thread.)

[Korpg]

Most of it is in my post on page 3, right before your complaint that I never reveal my secrets, which is why I sent you to the Summoner's forum to find it.

Best DD atma so far: RR, VV, SA. Why?
1) All 3 sources of damage benefit from physical atma, instead of just one. Damage is miles beyond that of a solid magic pact build. Not even the people in this thread were willing to believe the damage output of a staff that has only 4% less DOT rating than emp GK.
2) Spirit Taker and Myrkr provide more than enough MP for SMN. Minikin is a waste of an atma slot except to deal magic damage. I was getting 300-800 MP return with Spirit Taker on my OA4 staff.
3) Our best melee buff is on the avatar with the strongest physical BP.
4) Physical BPs do not drain pettp. That means a physical build is almost always accompanied by 507 AOE heals.
5) The rules for DD are well known. I'm just following those rules.

Some day I may replace VV with Apoc, but I need /WHM for all the other crazy stuff I do. There's enough downtime that +2 regain outweighs triple attack.

Well, you said "most" of it is on Page 3, but all I see is just certain stats (21% haste, 7% double attack). I'm just wondering where you get those numbers without pulling it out of your...you know.

Favorite part though. "Best DD atma so far: RR, VV, SA." "Some day I may replace VV with Apoc, but I need /WHM for all the other crazy stuff I do." Didn't you also say that you need /WHM for "RR only" once? Also, why are you thinking of replacing VV with Apoc when you have SA that could be replaced with? At least you would have the same atmas as actual DDs in that case. But I'm sure that STR+40, Att+50 is sooooo much better than Triple Attack+15%, especially for an avatar that does not have even double attack capabilities without atma.

But you still haven't posted your gears.

Guess what though, I'll post my gears and atma usage for you to show you the best possible damage you can have from avatar alone.

Fay Staff (perp-3, Pet:Att+7/RA+7, Pet:MAB+3) I got lucky, first fay staff I got too.
Emp+2 full set (well, I'm 3/5, going for 5/5 as soon as possible, only have +1 horn and gloves atm)
SMN skill stuff (you know, like the sea cape, SMN belt, SMN earring, Caller's Pendant, stuff like that)
Soulscourge (for BP:R, to help proc the set bonus)
Caller's Sash (set on macro for magical damage BP:R)
YY Robe/Relic stuff (for BP-)
MP+ gear (whatever slots are left to fill)

Atma of choice:
Minkin/Beyond/Ultimate for high-end Magical damage (BP of choice: Heavenly Strike, go figure) Although if I need to change up magical damage, I just replace Beyond with any other elemental damage +%.
Minkin/Ducal Guard/Mounted Champion for soloing. Because most anything that I fight solo can just have one avatar on it. Without worry of losing mp or HP if I get hit with an AoE. Only thing I really worry about are spellcasters, because ducal guard only works for reducing physical damage down alot. Single element spellcasters aren't a worry though, because I'll just sic an avatar thats strong against that element.
Minkin/RR/Apoc for Physical damage Avatars, because I find that having a Set proc with an Apoc proc to do as much damage as a Set proc with Magical damage. But for magical damage resistant/absorb mobs. Sometimes even better if you are fighting something with a little more "oomph" against certain types of damage, like blunt and Chaotic Strike. Best damage I have done to a Teek is 11k or so.

Why am I doing Minkin? Because I still get free avatars with the gear I have listed above, and I don't have to try to be a substandard DD to get back all the mp I use from BP:R/W. You would be amazed about how much MP a +10 refresh can give you back in a 45 second time frame.

Now, can you post your "21% haste/7% double attack" for us? I would love to see that.

[Korpg]

If being the best at what you do doesn't interest you, you don't have to follow me.

Since when was SMN a front line job? Is it because SMNs have the highest staff skill among all mages that makes it a front line job?

When are you going to suggest that Dark Knights should stay in the back and nuke from a distance? Or that Red Mages should also melee, since they have En-spells and the same sword and dagger skill level as a SMN with staff skill.

For soloing, if you want to melee, by all means, go ahead. You aren't hurting anyone else in the process (hence, solo).

For partying, if you want to melee, by all means, go ahead. Just don't blame others if the mob is spamming TP moves at 80% and the WHM is already out of mp (even in abyssea!), and people are dying.

But, seriously, thats got to be the best quote of the day! And the day just got started too!

[Karbuncle]

Yes, how dare they make you wait 45 whole seconds to do another 11,000 damage. You should be able to do 11,000 damage every ten seconds, nay, every second if you feel like it.

...You're talking about something that's 2-3 times stronger than the strongest nuke in the game (for no additional MP) AND puts no enmity on you and you're crying about 45 seconds of recast? Sheesh.

Go cry to the THFs, who rely on one minute JA timers that can't be reduced by gear at all. (Actually... if they can make -JA timer gear for one job, why can't they make it for two? That might help some of THF's problems without making it less THF-like. But that's off topic for this thread.)

I am a THF. I've posted about THF stuff on these boards SEVERAL times, including my disdain for how THF Job Abilities rely solely on being in a party. Just because THF isn't in the greatest shape doesn't mean its a bad job.

If you're not a gimp THF, you can do way more than 11,000 DMG in 45 Seconds. You can get TP in like ~10Seconds or less based on the buffs you have and Evisc' will average ~2.5k~3.k on anything Meaningful in abyssea. That adds up, through melee Damage, way more than 11,000DMG.

THIRDLY, 11,000 is only with SET PROC, which is roughly ~10% Chance to proc when Blood boon Activates, Its really really low. So you average ~5.5k DMG eveyr 45 seconds. Which is incredibly low compared to any other DD worth their party spot.

Enmity doesn't matter as much these days if you're going to actually bring up the "hate free' aspect of it, Even BLMs don't have to worry about it as much with Mana Wall and Enmity Douse. While its a nice bonus, its not enough of a reason to warrant a drawn out BP Timer these days.

BP Timer is too Restricting, Any DD worth his slot in a party can dish out 2x the damage a SMN can in that time, from Melee damage and WS Frequency.

It gets even worse if the DD in question actually gets March or haste frequently.

[Korpg]

...You're talking about something that's 2-3 times stronger than the strongest nuke in the game (for no additional MP) AND puts no enmity on you and you're crying about 45 seconds of recast? Sheesh.

1) Set bonus from BLM Emp +2 can do just as much damage as Set bonus from SMN Emp +2. BLMs have the advantage because they can cast a lot more than once ever 45 seconds.

2) Blood Pacts cost MP to the Summoner. So, yeah, it still costs mp to do that 11k attack. Although, 1/8 as much MP for BP:R. But then again, BLM Emp +2 set also reduces Bliz V to 1/8 as much MP for double damage.

[Dallas]

Since when was SMN a front line job?

Do you need one reason, or will a dozen suffice?

1) Since Spirit Taker was always better than resting.
2) Since the Feed TP excuse was ignored by every other job in the game. Zerg has been the way for YEARS. Even WHM melee.
3) Since avatars are summoned next to the summoner and since AOE buffs and heals are centered around the avatar.
4) Since 75 pacts originally didn't exist and the the 70 Pacts are only melee range (and used to fail any further away).
5) Since SMN get no native healing magic skill, enhancing magic skill, enfeebling magic skill, etc.
6) Since SMN does have access to a lot of good melee gear. (Look it up, 23% haste is the max right now)
7) Since WHM *can* keep people alive, and always have. They melee too.
8) What idiot came up with the idea that SMN should never die anyway? Avatars are full strength if SMN die once or ten times.
9) Speaking of dying, hard to do if that avatar is out using an AOE heal and the SMN stops to use an AOE heal, maybe even with divine seal. Doesn't happen alot though... look at #7.
10) Since Myrkr is even more powerful than Spirit Taker. Spirit Taker has a multiplier of x1.0. So does a normal hit. One double damage hit = one normal hit + one Spirit Taker damage. Only works if you melee.
11) Since more damage = faster kills = less damage taken by party = less stress on real healers.
12) Last, but certainly not least, all the fun posts from people saying "how dare you play this pet job identical to BST or PUP."

Oh, for the bakers out there:

13) Knowing that every time someone tells you that you suck, they propose some subset of what you do.

[Soundwave]

1) Allow /BST subbed Snarl to work for Avatars, Wyvern and Automatons. I really don't think DRG would use it, but why not show them the love too?
2) Allow all avatar buffs/heals to at least hit other avatars, but I vote for all pets. 2 Garudas should be able to heal each other.
3) Put back in the code that allowed pets to benefit from DNC Sambas. We loved this "error."
4) Enhance COR pet rolls to account for the fact that no player will benefit from any rolls.
5) Introduce AOE pet food that works on all pets in the pt.
6) Please please please introduce armor for SMN, BST, DRG, and PUP that equally buffs both the player and the pet.

1.) I would welcome this, another tool in the bag.
2.) A group of summoners can take down really anything letting them heal other avatars would be a bit imba.
3.) Ya would love to see this back lol...
4.) Interesting
5.) Love this idea.
6.) Can't complain on this everybody looks forward to more gear but some jobs due lack.

Thanks for making this thread, there really needs to be more of these.

[Karbuncle]

2.) A group of summoners can take down really anything letting them heal other avatars would be a bit imba.

Agree with all but 2

Really, a group of anything can take down really anything, so thats not a fair representation. DRGs can cure their pets with Spirit Link, Puppets got Oil, and BST's have jugs. giving SMNs some way to heal their avatars (Aside from a few with Healing BPs) would be nice.

Can't be anymore broken than 100%PDT BST pets and Pet food Zeta in Abyssea. SMN is a fun powerful job, i agree.

On another note, there is an item called "Dawn Mulsum" that cures your pet in game right now. its pretty neat.

[Malamasala]

This thread was made because all pet jobs are inherently gimp, forcing players to think that being gimp is by design.

I wouldn't call them gimp. Pets are perfectly balanced BEFORE buffs. It is just the buffing system that is a huge failure. You really shouldn't be able to do 100 times as much damage in a minute by applying a full set of buffs.