Thief Job Ability Synergy: This is not 2005

[Nebo]

Kinda feels like arguing with a less annoying version of kingfury (at least they're not adding "my friend" all the time). Someone who has an idea that people disagree with but holds on to it despite all criticism, and trying to debunk that criticism with invalid arguments, popping out more inappropriate ideas as they go along. Don't really see the point in it. If people believe THF should be a heavy damage dealer, let them believe it and be disappointed with each update again.

lol I'm not suprised you don't see the point. You've managed to miss it entirely.

Who said THF should be a heavy dd?

I know that there are people that disagree with THF getting DD tweaks. For the many years that this debate has been going on, there always have been. And I have always respected that.

The discussion we have been having has been centered around the reasons why THF should be classified into a certain role (Most people can't even agree on what that role is). The debate, at least for me, is in the "why?" Why do you think Thief should be this role or that? Why do you think THF should not get DD tweaks?

For example, in one post, Noodles argued that THF should be classified more utility and light DD because it only has 2 DD abilities. I disagree with that reason "why." Clearly THF has more DD abilities than 2.

In another post, you argued that THF is a support job by a definition that fits every other DD job, as well as argued that steal/mug/gilfinder etc are support abilities. I disagree that those are support abilities. I disagree with that reason "why." I don't think THF should be classified a support job for those reasons.

I'm actually glad that you don't agree with me, Arcon. Discussing these points allows us to bring light to the various issues of this debate.

It's one thing to disagree with me, it is another (and really quite funny) to suggest that it is just me that feels this way "despite all criticism" lol.

It's really not as one sided as you might think. Look down this page. Read through the threads. Read through THIS thread. Look at the rate ups on the OP.

That being said, none of that matters. This isn't a popularity contest. I'm sure our little conversation here is not representative of the entire FFXI population of Thieves. Nor does it negate the oppinions of those that don't agree with me or feel like THF shouldn't get any kind of DD tweak. Nor does it mean that everyone who feels one way or the other has been vocal, either with rate ups or posts.

It means that people have different points of view.

[Huevriel]

Sneak Attack is very limited and often impossible to use when playing solo. (Significantly limits damage dealing and the ability to enhance treasure hunter).

One of the many reasons why I love using the Adventuring fellow. You can Sneak Attack and Trick Attack with them.

[Nebo]

One of the many reasons why I love using the Adventuring fellow. You can Sneak Attack and Trick Attack with them.

I also very much like to use them where available. Nauthima is 70. I'll be spending some time capping her soon. Their mage AI leaves a bit to be desired but I digress.

Though, even adventuring fellows fall under both categories of limited and often impossible to use.

NPC Fellows are very limited in the selection of areas in which they are summonable. Thus impossible to SA or TA with them in places you can't call them. It sucks that the places that you can't call them are the majority.

Limited further by mob counts, time limits, and pearl charge restrictions in the areas where you can. So the usage of them for landing SA and TA is quite limited for solo purposes. Especially if you spend most of your soloing time in Abyssea.

Granted they have just allowed them in a few areas from ToAU and seem to be increasing their time out which is nice.

I've just always disagreed that the solution to utilizing these fundamental abilities when playing solo should be an adventuring fellow.

[Nebo]

SE sadly did say we would stay dependant on the party. I guess we will never see any change to sa/ta into solo perspective. Well, i hope they get a damage boost then!

In a lot of ways, this is why I started this thread. The very existance of this official forum says something about their desire to talk to us about these things. If there is a place to have a voice, talk about and ask for these things. I think its here.

In a perfect world, I would hope that they at least consider the idea that "enhances party, or enhanced by party play" doesn't have to mean "Useless without the party" with very little flexibility.

In a game where people put so much of themselves into their mains...a job like Thief that lends itself so much to soloing, lowmanning, treasure hunting/gilmaking, tanking, tactical DDing, etc. It is frustrating to feel the desires for this kind of flexibility from the community and the dev team desires in such conflict.

[Laphine]

yeah, i do post here hoping we can someday align both the community and the devs view on what exactly is thief. Only good things will happen when we achieve that. But considering that the community itself is torn on what exactly are we, this could take a while...

Meanwhile i keep posting my near broken ideas like putting dex/agi mods inside the ws damage calculation. Recently (arguably more broken lol) i thought about making sa/ta triple, as in the triple hits would crit with modified damage too, instead of only 100% acc. Could even add a less broken variation where the triple would crit, but without the modifiers too. This concept would make AC specially useful too. Lol and i just thought of maybe making sa/ta damage related to our attack speed. Like, 50% delay reduction could mean 2x sa/ta damage~. Fun stuff.

[Nickeny-biz]

I always thought about this in the sense that if I was going to "Fix" our utility I would do something like this:

A universal steal timer of 30 seconds (MAXIMUM), and a seperate category for Enmity Steals.

Dramatically increase the success percentage, with a cap of 95% with +steal gear.

I would then create a bunch of different kinds of steal that all share this 30 second timer.

• (Item)Steal: Same as it is now (I like your idea of stealing temp items [That don't take inventory space] that are useful to us mid-battle instead of the useless fodder crap we can steal and despoil now). Percent chance would remain the same for valued steal items like coins and dynamis currency. These would simply be HQ steals as opposed to regular temp items for battle.
• Aurasteal: Seperated from (item)Steal. Only steals & dispells Buffs. Does not attempt an item steal. Will not fail if inventory is full, etc.
• Despoil (Attack): Inflicts Attack Down and Steals a 15% Attack Boost.
• Despoil (Accuracy): Influcts Accuracy Down and Steals 30 Accuracy
• Despoil (Critical Hit Rate) Inflicts Crit Hit Rate down and Steals a 10% Critical hit Rate boost.
• Despoil (Magic Evasion) Inflicts Magic Evasion Down and Steals 30 Magic Evasion.
• Despoil (Magic Defense) Inflicts Magic Defense Down and grants 15% Magic Defense Bonus.
• Despoil (Evasion): Inflicts Evasion Down and Steals 30 Evasion
• Despoil (TP): Steals 35 TP
• Despoil (HP): Steals 350 HP
• Despoil (Speed): Inflicts a 10% "Speed Down" status effect (stacks with but is not a slow effect) and causes a "10%Speed Boost" Status effect (stacks with but is not a haste effect.)
• Mug: Inflicts Damage and Stuns the target. No longer steals gil.

*All Despoil abilites are specific, not random, and do not attempt an item steal.
*All Despoil Debuffs and Buffs last 2 minutes (enhanced by +despoil gear).
*All Buffs stolen with Aurasteal last the standard base duration of the buff. Duration is not determined from the time the monster used it.

Conspirator Recast is shortened to 2 Minutes and grants current stolen Despoil buff effects to your party. e.g.Despoil (Attack) + Conspirator = Party Attack Bonus.

• "Current enmity target" restriction is removed from Conspirator

Enmity Steals To be on Seperate recast timers. Recast timers are not shared:

• Collaborator: Steals 25% Enmity: 30 Second Recast
• Accomplice: Steals 50% enmity 1 Minute Recast
• Perpetrator: Steals 100% Enmity 5 Minute recast
  *Effective range will be extended

Flee is a party buff (like Mazurka) so we can help them {run away}.

Hide adds Invisibe, Sneak and Deodorise. Sheds enmity on all but a very select few HNMs (IE: Works on almost everything in the game)

Perfect Dodge is reduced to a 5 minute recast Job Ability and a new 2 Hour is given.

• A defensive ability called "Evade" will be added. One minute recast timer. Allows the THF to dodge the next phsyical Attack.

Job Traits, THF specific Ranged Weapons, or THF specific gear will be added to enhance Status Bolts/Arrows accuracy, potentcy etc.

That is the kind of utility I invision being relevant in 2011 FFXI.

While I agree some of these ideas are step forward I have to say some are little overpower tho.. my 2 cents are

Steal: lower the timer first off and allow us to steal temp items are something, or enhance the TH# of the mob we are fighting would be awesome...

Aura steal: Like you said let it be on a different cool down and a decent timer.

Collaborator: I don't mind that it shares a timer but would love if accomplice wasn't 5 mins jeez...

Despoil: Make it not suck... I mean anything would make it better...but if I had to choose let it take all the tp off the mob IE: Thfs version of Absorb TP and allowing us to self SC This would help THF overall with DPS and allow your party to MB.

SA/TA's:I've never really had a problem landing my attacks other then SA sometimes because I am able to peel hate for a second with a couple of attack rounds which is why I would propose...
Co-defendant: Would allow us to "Give" our hate to a party member so we are able to do something like this (Steal hate from DD--->dump hate---->SAWS--->Despoil---->TAWS )

Perfect Dodge: When I see a ISL chest I cry a little inside... They really need to make this like a 10min JA or something.

NEW 2HR:Something that would bring justice to thfs EVERYWHERE. Here are few examples

JPbuttonlol2hr:100% everything drops button, double the Th on the current monster, or even steal an item from the monsters loot pool.

Decapitate: Double the damage of your Crts for 30 seconds. Can see some awesome stuff with that.

Let's hope if we get any change's they are at least a step forward...

[Laphine]

JPbuttonlol2h. Excellent lol.

[Nebo]

yeah, i do post here hoping we can someday align both the community and the devs view on what exactly is thief. Only good things will happen when we achieve that. But considering that the community itself is torn on what exactly are we, this could take a while...

I think you are right. This right here is a testimate to the fact that we have all these utility job abilites that lack utility, some DD tools dependant on being in a party, some evasion to solo/tank/survive and treasure hunter.

Those things weren't designed to work together and if we're not designed to solo, or tank, or be a "heavy DD" or have actually utility with our utility abilities. What are we? Its no wonder players disagree.

As a matter of fact, I would bet serious gil that most of the non-Thief playerbase, when asked the question "What is Thief's role" would simply reply: "Treasure Hunter."

But even now 2 other jobs have TH. Thief needs some changes and a clear direction.

[Nebo]

While I agree some of these ideas are step forward I have to say some are little overpower tho.. my 2 cents are

I'll agree I did make those suggestions powerful. I just think that if THF is destined to be classified as a "support/utility job," it should have powerful support/utility.

I thought some of your ideas were pretty cool as well. JPbutton 2 Hour lol.

Let's hope if we get any change's they are at least a step forward...

...let's hope.

[Nebo]

Two traits: 50% + 50% = 100%. Adding treasure hunter would double the chance at drops. I would call double pretty significant. Wouldn't you?

No I wouldn't. Because while a 100% increase sure does sound like a significant increase. On things with single digit drop rates, it isn't.

For example. A 100% increase in drop rate on something that has a 1% droprate is now.....2%. Would you call that a significant increase? I wouldn't.

Which is why Treasure Hunter makes behive chips rain from the sky but has less of an impact on things with low drop rates. Is it an increase? Definitely. Is it a significant increase for rare drop rates? Not really.