Thief Job Ability Synergy: This is not 2005

[Arcon]

I think you forget how hard it was to keep up with the (better designed) heavy hitter Damage Dealers before abysea [..] I think this and the next quote are the fundamental points we disagree on. Thief is not a hybrid job. It is a Damage Dealer, with positional restrictions that can apply Treasure Hunter. Treasure Hunter is not a reason to make us a gimp DD.

And that's just that, disagreement. Why should a THF be able to do as much damage as a real DD? Yes, THF was a good DD, it was never a great one, and that's how it's supposed to be. Look at the name. Thief. We steal things. THF being on par with real DDs is almost as wrong as DNC being on par with real DDs. It kinda sounds to me like people wanting PLD to do more damage to fix it. Why not let a BRD do more damage? Give WHM Holy X and make it do 7k base damage. Why not? Because it doesn't fit their role-playing profile. Not every job is meant to be a great DD, where would be the versatility of that?

I agree with Arcon on this. THF is not a tank, was not designed to tank and can only tank inside abyssea because of atmas.

That's not quite true and it's not what I said. THF can tank just fine outside of Abyssea, and even could at 75. Charybdis for example could easily be duo'd by THF+BRD (and in fact not many other combinations). THF was always a great tank for lowman situations, just like inside Abyssea. Every job can tank inside Abyssea, that's nothing special, THF is only used there because of its decent damage potential and additional treasure hunter.

[Laphine]

I actually agree with nebo. I think we fit a DD role. Especially when most of the things that made us thieves in the past are useless now (steal and lockpick - although aura steal does fix steal somewhat).

Considering we are in fact dds, not receiving a single direct damage boost throughout the FFXI history makes no sense. The one dd boost we received was indirect (dagger damage upgrade) and helped everyone that used or wanted to use daggers. So it helped the dncs, aka, our nemesis, too. It was also a very long time ago, pretty much forgotten in our history.

Being able to sa/ta all the time isn't bad. If you have the kinematics spreadsheet, it's easy to see how awfully it affects our final damage. It's significance today is overshadowed by super dw/haste and crit and multi hit rates. Not only that, but a solo sa/ta round dps was never so much bigger than our usual melee rounds to begin with. So if take that sa/ta contribution on paper (simulating free usage of the JAs) is small, when we bring this to reality, things get even worse. We are humans after all, and we will lose time searching for the perfect spot to hit, and also, it's impossible for us to use the JAs exactly 50-60 secs. All this worsed by fatigue.

[Nebo]

That's not quite true and it's not what I said

I infered you meant atmas and abysea from this. Also the bolded part to mean that you didn't think THF was a viable tank outside abyssea. My apologies.

I don't even think SE imagined THF to be as good a tank as it turned out to be, and I'm pretty sure after Abyssea it won't be anymore.

However this...

THF can tank just fine outside of Abyssea, and even could at 75. Charybdis for example could easily be duo'd by THF+BRD (and in fact not many other combinations). THF was always a great tank for lowman situations, just like inside Abyssea.

...does not mean THF was a tank. It means that THF could survive and outlive charybdis with mage support. The more DD you add to that situation the more it starts to fall apart.

This also falls under one of your previous points of things THF was never intended or designed to do.

Look at the name. Thief. We steal things

.

This part of Thief is a gimmic...a joke...a useless pile of rotting crap that the entire Thief community makes light hearted jokes about because that is all we can do. It is mind boggling that Square Enix thinks there is any utility at all within these abilities as they exist in FFXI.

This is NOT a good reason to make us a gimp DD or wannabe half ass tank struggling for identity.

Every job can tank inside Abyssea

This is also not true. Just ask Noodles about RNG

[thefinalrune]

This is NOT a good reason to make us a gimp DD or wannabe half ass tank struggling for identity.

But thief isn't a DD or a tank. Sure, we can do these things, but its not what we're designed for. Thief isn't a hybrid job either. We're hate managers. Sure, that functionality has become less and less prevalent over the years, but that really is a failing of unbalanced party requirements and now a limit of a too shallow enmity cap. Sure, in Abyssea hate is more or less a moot point since everything dies so fast, and there are currently no standing need for hate management in most all end game scenarios outside of Aby either. But, that's not to say that won't change. Until we see what SE has in store for level 99 end game its hard to know exactly how thief will fit into everything.

I would love to do more damage with my thief, but I don't expect that to happen. Its just not in our nature. If we were meant to be DDs we wouldn't be given such low damage weapons for primary use. And our own ability to generate hate is extremely limited vs. our ability to move it around so I really don't think we're intended to be tanks. Just because the community is dead set on making jobs be other roles it doesn't mean SE should alter them to fit those roles. Everyone wants WAR to be a DD, and they are, a damn good one, but SE continually releases updates to make them more tank like. That's the role they're given. They're tanks that generates enmity via damage more than abilities. Like how a PLD is a tank that generates enmity via abilities and spells instead of damage.

Thief is a hate management job. This is what I would like to see SE put more effort into. Separate the recast timers on collaborator and accomplice, reduce their recast times and increase their strength. Give us even more hate management tools. Couple that with a rise in the enmity ceiling and we may find our proper place again in party situations.

[Nebo]

But thief isn't a DD or a tank. Sure, we can do these things, but its not what we're designed for. Thief isn't a hybrid job either. We're hate managers.

Ignoring the fact that hate managment job abilities are virtually useless, if one were just to compare job abilities, one would conclude that Thief is a Damage Dealer, not a Hate manager.

Two abilities that effect enmity: Trick Attack, Accomplorator (lets also not forget that this is a very recent addition).

Not to mention the fact that the enmity you transfer with trick attack depends soley on the DAMAGE that it does

Versus abilities associated with dealing damage:

Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Triple Attack, Assassin, Assassin's Charge, Feint, Ambush, Dual Wield, Critical Attack Bonus.

Most of our group one merits are DD related: Sneak Attack recast, Trick Attack recast, Triple Attack Rate.

Most of our group two merits are DD related: Ambush, Assassin's charge, feint.

As a matter of fact, nothing in those merits has anything to do with enmity manipulation at all. Unless you count hide recast, which sheds hate on a very limited number of things (or doesn't work on "anything that matters" as Noodles put)

Given this, I think it is fair to conclude that Thief is a damage dealer first, with some very slight utility in the enmity area. No where near enough to call us an "enmity manipulation" specialist as a job role. Not even close.

[Khajit]

Sub sam, wear earth staff if not using kraken, seigan HOOOOOOOO.
Oh and I didn't see it mentioned when i glanced at things but people tend to stand at max melee distance from the mob making it impossible to TA them until you harass them into taking a step forward by which point you've lost 10x the damage you'd have gained from TA. Perhaps SE should give thf's max melee range an enhancement when TA is active.

[Khajit]

ITT: Full aurore thf telling us that THf isn't a DD.

[Arcon]

Thief is a support job. It's there to enhance the efficiency of the party. Support job doesn't have to cast buffs or heal, that's a common misconception. A Thief literally supports the party, in part by controlling the flow of the battle (Accollaborator, Sneak/Trick Attack), in part by enhancing the quality/quantity of drops (Treasure Hunter, Gilfinder, Steal/Despoil, Mug), in part by buffing the party (Conspirator, indirectly with Feint and Aura Steal), in part by providing a backup tank (Evasion Bonus, highest Evasion and Parrying skill in the game), and in part by dealing damage.

Yes, thief is a damage dealer. But the world isn't just black and white. It's not just "damage dealer" and "not damage dealer", but lots of gray shades. Thief can deal damage, so can a Warrior, or a Bard, or a Monk, or a White Mage. They're all varying degrees of damage dealers. Now people express the desire to make Thieves stronger damage dealers. May I ask why? Why do you feel your Thief should be doing more damage? So it can be as strong as a Warrior? Why don't Bards ask for the same bonus? Or Summoners?

Thief is already a strong job, stronger than it should be in my opinion. But most of that stems from Abyssea and will hopefully be adjusted with the next update.

[Nebo]

Thief is a support job.

We disagree on this. Thief is a support job? That's reaching, my friend.

A Thief literally supports the party, in part by controlling the flow of the battle (Accollaborator, Sneak/Trick Attack), in part by enhancing the quality/quantity of drops (Treasure Hunter, Gilfinder, Steal/Despoil, Mug), in part by buffing the party (Conspirator, indirectly with Feint and Aura Steal)

,

This is really reaching. Accomplorator, Sneak/Trick attack aren't controlling the flow of any party.

The only one that applies to your second grouping is Treasure Hunter. Come on. Really? You are using gilfinder, steal and mug to argue that THF is a support job? Seriously?

Ok I'll bite. Gilfinder does not work in parties, only solo (even though we were designed not to solo lol). Steal, despoil and mug only steal (useless) things and give them to you, not your party.

Conspirator was just added, but they just had to put that "Won't work on the monster's current enmity target" extra Thief fail limitation on it before they gave it to us.

Aurasteal is also a pretty big stretch to be listed as a support ability. But I could see someone perceiving a lame 5 minute recast dispel (that for some strange reason was attached to steal) being a "support ability" in some sense.

Aside from the fact that it is no longer very relevant, Feint is pretty good.

I just can't see where you are getting the idea that Thief is a support job from? Or why you are so against the damage that we do?

Think about what you are saying. By this definition Warior is a support job as well.

• Provoke, which, in my oppinion, is a more useful enmity tool than trick attack or accomplorator, with a short enough recast to be relevant. One might also count the damage they put out/retaliation as a utility tool for tanking and holding enmity.
  
• Warcy to buff the party, and merits to give that ability a TP bonus effect.
  
• Blood Rage which enhances critical hit rate and critical hit damage by 20%(20 F*cking Percent) for party members within area of effect. (This should have gone to THF in my oppinion)
  
• Tomahawk to lower special defenses of damage resistant monsters.
  
• Heck they even have like 5 or 6 Great Axe weaponskills that enfeeble the mob in various ways. Evasion Down, Defense down, Attack Down, Slow. They even have one that Lowers accuracy, weakens attacks and defense, and impairs evasion all in one.

Sorry, it looks like we're going to have to nerf Warrior in this next update because it is clearly a support job and deals WAY too much damage.

Edit: I'm going to put this in here because it needs pointing out. Damage is the yard stick by which the utility of a melee class is measured. It seems to be a prerequisit. Damage 1st, utility second. You can see this happening with many jobs.

Look at the state of PLD. A Metric TON of utility and useful job abilities for tanking. Lacking a little too much in the damage (or at least that's how its perceived) and very few people use them for much of anything.

DNC. When the job first came out, people wouldn't use them for anything. Even though they were an endless, MPless melee healing battery, they didn't really become perceived as worth a slot until they got their DD abilities super buffed.

THF used to be TH bitch, tag the mob and sit out of the hard stuff. Now we are powerful enough in abyssea to be in there hitting and tanking the mob.

They are trying to "fix" RNG with gimmic-like utility (bounty shot updates) It isn't working because their opportunity to deal damage still suffers.

If you aren't dealing real damage as a melee class, odds are people aren't going to care very much about your utility.

[Arcon]

This is really reaching. Accomplorator, Sneak/Trick attack aren't controlling the flow of any party.

They are. The fact that currently (especially inside Abyssea) the flow of a battle is so chaotic (mainly due to flaws within the enmity system) changes nothing in that regard. The capabilities are there.

The only one that applies to your second grouping is Treasure Hunter. Come on. Really? You are using gilfinder, steal and mug to argue that THF is a support job? Seriously?

Yes, because those are supporting abilities. How else would you classify them?

Ok I'll bite. Gilfinder does not work in parties, only solo (even thought we were designed not to solo lol). Steal, despoil and mug only steal (useless) things and give them to you, not your party.

I didn't know about Gilfinder being solo only, and to be honest I'm not quite sure I should believe it. I'll have to test it myself later. Regardless, those abilities can hardly be classified in any other way. On an interesting (although probably unintended) note, Steal, Despoil and Mug all give some enmity and can be used as such. They're also nice claiming tools, especially Mug if your inventory is full, which actually would qualify as supporting the party.

Conspirator was just added, but they just had to put that "Won't work on the monster's current enmity target" extra Thief fail limitation on it before they gave it to us.

Aurasteal is also a pretty big stretch to be listed as a support ability. But I could see someone perceiving a lame 5 minute recast dispel (that for some strange reason was attached to steal) being a "support ability" in some sense.

Aside from the fact that it is no longer very relevant, Feint is pretty good.

I just can't see where you are getting the idea that Thief is a support job from? Or why you are so against the damage that we do?

I get the idea from the things you just listed, and from what I said before.

Think about what you are saying. By this definition Warior is a support job as well.

As I said in the post you quoted yourself, it's not just "damage dealer" or "not damage dealer", but various shades of gray. It's also the reason why some heavy damage dealers aren't the same as others. Not one job was designed to be purely damage dealer, with nothing else. WAR has Defender, MNK has Dodge and Counter, DRG has healing capabilities, SAM has Seigan/Third Eye, DRK has Dread Spikes, and so on. The question is simply where do we draw the line?

THF can barely deal comparable damage inside Abyssea, and there they still have a huge boost. Even in current outside-Abyssea content, THF performs subpar when compared to actual damage dealers. Imagine what it would be like on Lv90+ content without Atma and Cruor buffs.

Edit: I'm going to put this in here because it needs pointing out. Damage is the yard stick by which the utility of a melee class is measured. It seems to be a prerequisit. Damage 1st, utility second. You can see this happening with many jobs.

Sadly, this is often true. Especially lately, the strategic value of certain jobs and tactics is discarded in favor of brute force, because it works. It didn't use to, and I hope that will change again. On Byakko, you couldn't just throw everything you had on it and hope to survive. Well, you could, but wouldn't lead anywhere. These days you can. Will it stay that way? I don't know, but I certainly hope not. This is where it all becomes a matter of opinion again. I was very happy playing FFXI the way it was, and I don't see a reason to change it.