Thief Job Ability Synergy: This is not 2005

[Babekeke]

I have to agree with Nebo on his last comment certainly with some aspects. In a meripo, it's likely that a thf can top the parse. Especially if you're fighting birds. This is mainly because of Trick attack, and what was mentioned earlier about DDs not wanting hate or they can't maximise their damage potential. If a war uses berserk, then you trick attack him, chances are he'll have to cancel berserk, unless they feel they can ride seigan until the mob is dead. Even in this case, the WAR has to use 2 JAs, missing a swing, and taking longer to reach their next ws.

The point about the job being about the player, not the job itself is also very valid. If you're fighting NMs with a SAM that thinks he's god (there are a few about, trust me) they like to run in with all their DD buffs on, sekkanokki fragmentation, meditate light or whatever, then they spend the next 5 mins weakened. Damage potential was high, but actual damage output was low XD. The THF however, just plods along, WSing every 30 secs or whatever, fully capable of taking a few punches should we pull hate (which we would if we were fast enough to save the sam with accomplice XD).

And the gear section has me down to a T. I use ~60 gear slots on thf, and tbh I'd probably out damage my own war (lol full perle) over time.

When I choose jobs for events, every DD job has to be able to take a few hits should the need arise (ie. knows how to use seigan, not just full-time hasso).

However this thread is kind of being derailed now. Yes being able to use 'stances' or SA/TA outside of the current positional requirements would allow us to more frequently hit our damage potential, and stop me from shouting at my laptop when people move in a party.

[noodles355]

I have to agree with Nebo on his last comment certainly with some aspects. In a meripo, it's likely that a thf can top the parse. Especially if you're fighting birds. This is mainly because of Trick attack, and what was mentioned earlier about DDs not wanting hate or they can't maximise their damage potential. If a war uses berserk, then you trick attack him, chances are he'll have to cancel berserk, unless they feel they can ride seigan until the mob is dead. Even in this case, the WAR has to use 2 JAs, missing a swing, and taking longer to reach their next ws.

やれやれ。。。Oh dear...

If you top the parse because you are intentionally gimping other people's damage, like making them have to cancel berserk then you are a very bad player and the fact you topped the parse is completely irrelevant. Secondly, parsing yourself against random pickup DDs has never, and will never be useful for anything outside of stroking your epeen.

60 gear slots? You think that's a lot on thief? Lol.

Obviously every good LS leader chooses the person, not the job when it comes to DD roles. Don't think you're somehow special because you do this too. Example, most LS leaders call parties something like: "Whm: Player1, Brd: Player2, Cor: Player3, War: Player4, DD: Player5, DD: Player6".
That however is irrelevant. Equally geared and skilled a War (for example) will put out more damage than a thief. Thus if you have access to equally good players and have a DD spot, you would take the War. Similarly, if you do not know the players (eg pickup group) then you would also choose a war because again, on equal gear/skill, it will be stronger.

[Babekeke]

If you top the parse because you are intentionally gimping other people's damage, like making them have to cancel berserk then you are a very bad player.

You have a habit of reading what people type, interpreting it in your own way, and then commenting on what you thought they said. Maybe it's a language barrier or maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought. In a meripo, on colibri, hate gets bounced around; it's expected as there's no specific tank (unless you happened to have a Blau Dolsch NIN). Every DD there is expected to be able to tank should they pull hate (or if there's a thf in the pt, you might get sata'd).

Secondly, parsing yourself against random pickup DDs has never, and will never be useful for anything outside of stroking your epeen.

Actually, I (and most other people I know) parse myself only if I'm setting a benchmark for gear, or if I've just changed my gear, or perhaps if fighting a new mob with different stats, to see if I'm hitting the acc cap etc. etc. etc. Looks like you made a generalised judgement based on what you do yourself.

60 gear slots? You think that's a lot on thief? Lol.

Mis-quoted to make yourself sound better? "~" means "about/roughly/give-or-take". I wasn't logged on when I wrote that and don't know off the top of my head. It obviously depends on whether I'm carrying each individual stack of bolts/shihei AND the x/12 pouch. However, I usually have enough slots to carry the 6 ele ninjutsu and have a few slots free for lotting drops, so I guess it's not far off 60. If you think that's lol I'd be more than interested to see your "ZOMG I use 79 slots on THF full time!" Gear list, because mine is getting shorter and shorter as I add the new AF3 gear.

Obviously every good LS leader chooses the person, not the job when it comes to DD roles. Don't think you're somehow special because you do this too. Example, most LS leaders call parties something like: "Whm: Player1, Brd: Player2, Cor: Player3, War: Player4, DD: Player5, DD: Player6".

Maybe I wasn't clear for this, I just meant shouting for aby NMs or for missions etc. I'm not a LS leader, nor am I even in a HNMLS. I have a life outside of FFXI.

That however is irrelevant. Equally geared and skilled a War (for example) will put out more damage than a thief. Thus if you have access to equally good players and have a DD spot, you would take the War. Similarly, if you do not know the players (eg pickup group) then you would also choose a war because again, on equal gear/skill, it will be stronger.

Which if you read back a page, is exactly what both Nebo and myself already said, but thanks for pointing this out again.

[Nebo]

Yeah, I don't think anyone would argue (well, argue honestly) that THF is the best DD job, given equal levels of skilled and gear etc.

A major plus to THF DD though (preabyssea before limitless MP), was damage dealt to damage taken ratio. Something not a lot of people considered I think, but a definite plus.

I don't take equal levels of skill and gear as a given though. To me it's not a given that you will find players/jobs that are equally skilled and geared. Or players that have even the slightest clue about the various damage formulas.

It's more of a given, in my experience, that you will find lots of players that just don't have a friggin' clue what to do with it, even if they do have a lot of the best gear. It's more of a given that the vast majority of the playerbase does not discuss FFXI on forums or take the time to do the math, or think about maximizing in a variety of situations.

Oh I'm sure there are quite a lot that do. But they are definitely not the majority.

Relating this to OP, I think another fundamental reason groups prefer other DD's to THF is that the job's positional nature and the way trick attack works are viewed as unneccessary hastles. It just gives them one more thing to think about and pay attention to, when they could simply invite another DD that can do their own damage without any extra thought or effort from the group.

I know I've said this before but I am quite fine with being a DD of relatively weaker potential. But being bound to positional limitations AND being a weaker DD at the same time is unbalanced in my oppinion.

[Arcon]

I'm not a LS leader, nor am I even in a HNMLS. I have a life outside of FFXI.

That comment alone makes me not take anything you say seriously.

Seems I missed a lot of pages while I was gone, but people are still arguing the same things. Few comments:

• Full THF gear? Roughly 90 slots, 100 if you go all out.
• I've only once seen a THF beat a DD in a merit party. Alljoker on Leviathan at Lv75, Mandau and full Heca+1 set vs. a random, but ok geared SAM. Every other time Thief came out last, by a good margin.
• THF is already extremely useful both inside and outside of Abyssea, because damage doesn't matter much these days anyway. Inside Abyssea, 3min vs. 5min NM battle doesn't make a lot of difference. Outside of Abyssea, time is not an issue anyway, and barely any mob will last through the survival stage, if it does it's usually a HNM and requires a decent setup in the first place, as opposed to THF + support.

I have PLD, WAR, THF, SMN, BRD, SCH and I play THF almost exclusively, not because other jobs are useless, or not geared decently, but because almost everything that currently needs to be done can be done with THF (and sometimes a support job) and can be done so easily and efficiently. THF can solo NMs extremely well, THF can farm extremely well, THF can tank extremely well, THF is great for brews, THF is great for just running around because of Flee and movement speed gear and naturally high evasion, you can just run through entire crowds of mobs, which makes it ideal for low lvl farming or questing.

People who say THF needs upgrades because it is useless doesn't know THF at all. People who say THF needs upgrades because it gets abused as a TH whore are playing with the wrong people. The only thing THF needs upgrades for are its Thief-y abilities like Steal, Mug and Despoil, because those are virtually useless as it is.

Edit:
Just read over a few comments again and it's interesting to see how many people who defend THF, say it's not useless and has lots of capabilities are the same people who complain that it isn't good enough and needs upgrades.

[Nebo]

That comment alone makes me not take anything you say seriously.

That's a pretty silly reason not to take someone seriously. Especially when you know nothing else about them, or their history, or whether they lead or participated in an HNMLS in the past decade. He/she is just as entitled to their oppinion (even though he/she disagrees with mine ).

Besides which, HNMLS leaders (or even HNMLS's) may not necessarily represent the oppinnions and desires of the FFXI population. Especially now given that they really aren't needed. Most things are lowmannable.

I could also say some equally silly things about your credibility based on assumptions like:

"Arcon, you are a scrub and a bandwagon THF because you merited Flee instead of obviously superior Group 1 Merits. So I won't take anything you have to say seriously."

or

"Arcon, you have no credibility in a THF forum because you think it is a Support Job"

or

"Arcon, you have no conception of proper DD and maximizing because you gear the exact same in and outside of Abbyssea, fully aware that you aren't maximizing or DD'ing to potential, but "it's just fine so whatever.'"

I could also tell you with a high degree of certainty that my THF would not only run circles around your THF, but also your WAR as well.

All of these would be silly assumptions for me to make but, more importantly, largely irrelevant because I still believe you are entitled to have your oppinion taken seriously as well. No matter how little I personally think of it, or you as a THF.

[*]I've only once seen a THF beat a DD in a merit party. Alljoker on Leviathan at Lv75, Mandau and full Heca+1 set vs. a random, but ok geared SAM. Every other time Thief came out last, by a good margin.

I could also say you don't have a clue what THF is capable of because of statements like this, but I don't know that. I will note though that there is really no reason a SAM should ever be beating a THF in a meripo parse.

People who say THF needs upgrades because it is useless doesn't know THF at all.

Agreed. But no one said this.

People who say THF needs upgrades because it gets abused as a TH whore are playing with the wrong people

Also agreed, but no one said this either.

THF was not designed or intended to solo and tank. THF can only tank inside abyssea because of atma's (As can nearly every other DD). THF is not fine as a job because everyone with a critical WS and the right atma's is on god mode inside abyssea. It's like you keep saying, we are leaving there soon. THF needs updates for this.

THF needs upgrades for are its Thief-y abilities like Steal, Mug and Despoil, because those are virtually useless as it is.

I think we agree on this as well, but we disagre that this is the only thing. I also have serious doubts that SE will fix these into something relevant.

Just read over a few comments again and it's interesting to see how many people who defend THF, say it's not useless and has lots of capabilities are the same people who complain that it isn't good enough and needs upgrades.

What I said was that THF is a DD job. A DD job of relatively weaker damage potential compared to the likes of WAR, MNK, etc, but a DD job none the less. I am fine with being a DD job of lesser DD potential, but being bound by positional restrictions as well as being a realtively weak DD is unbalanced, in my oppinion.

I am VERY happy with THF's damage potential. I don't think drastic increases in damage potential are really needed. What I am unhappy with are the current limitations placed upon the opportunity to fulfil THF's current (relatively weaker) potential.

[Laphine]

You do exaggerate with those "extremely well". We can do most of that stuff okish at best. What we do excel though is making shit drop.

The point on this thread, and mostly the op, is that by freeing us from positioning we could get better at something that we suck at. That's soloing. Not because we can't survive solo, but because our performance/utility in such case takes a dive. And this doesn't make sense when low manning is the way the game is headed. Then again, this idea goes against the understanding that SE has about thief (a job that relies on the party to bring its full potential). Still, even if we do have a party, i don't think we bring out so much to it (beyond drops). That text about thief updates used on vanafest is nothing but some pretty words.

[Babekeke]

That comment alone makes me not take anything you say seriously.

That's fine. If you have no life outside FFXI then there's no reason for you to take me seriously. Believe what you like, and do whatever boosts your E-Peen. If you can't beat any other DD on THF vs birds though, that must make your E-Peen droop.

[Arcon]

That's a pretty silly reason not to take someone seriously.

It's an adequate reason not to take someone seriously. Since this is a debate based on player judgment, and with that comment they showed the judging capabilities of a three year old, I don't see the reason to value anything they have to contribute to this discussion. You can say whatever you want about me, I don't care in the first place. And what you say about THF is still groundless, apart from your personal preference.

I will note though that there is really no reason a SAM should ever be beating a THF in a meripo parse.

Was that a typo?

Agreed. But no one said this.

Yes, you did.

Also agreed, but no one said this either.

Yes, you did.

And plenty others throughout this thread and more threads on these and other forums and even in the game.

THF can only tank inside abyssea because of atma's (As can nearly every other DD). THF is not fine as a job because everyone with a critical WS and the right atma's is on god mode inside abyssea. It's like you keep saying, we are leaving there soon. THF needs updates for this.

That's inaccurate, as THF is one of the better tanks outside of Abyssea right now. THF has never needed Atma in order to tank and, in fact, I always use only DD Atma in the first place. And that doesn't work on many other jobs.

You do exaggerate with those "extremely well". We can do most of that stuff okish at best. What we do excel though is making shit drop.

I don't think I exaggerated one bit. We can do those things better than most jobs, some better than any job (farming and questing I wouldn't do on anything else).

The point on this thread, and mostly the op, is that by freeing us from positioning we could get better at something that we suck at. That's soloing. Not because we can't survive solo, but because our performance/utility in such case takes a dive. And this doesn't make sense when low manning is the way the game is headed.

SA/TA don't deal much damage, neither inside nor outside of Abyssea. And you can TA perfectly fine already when lowmanning (bar soloing). So the only thing it would do would be to increase TH even more, which I wouldn't necessarily complain about, but which definitely isn't needed on the one job that already has TH as one of its greatest advantages when lowmanning.

As for soloing, THF may not be as good at it as DNC or NIN, or situationally RDM, BLM or SCH, but considering it was never meant to solo, it is still better at it than almost all other jobs. Why you would want to push that, when it's still perfectly capable of efficiently lowmanning? There's almost nothing BRD+THF can't do efficiently (and no one's talking about Abyssea here), which is already too much considering that's not what it was intended for (I actually believe that SE didn't consider any job to be a solo job).

That's fine. If you have no life outside FFXI then there's no reason for you to take me seriously. Believe what you like, and do whatever boosts your E-Peen. If you can't beat any other DD on THF vs birds though, that must make your E-Peen droop.

1.25*THF damage < heavy DD damage

As simple as that. I'm right, you're wrong. Nothing to argue, move along. Or stick around and keep throwing insults, I don't care much either way, you just keep making yourself look ridiculous. From my experience in over six years of playing this game and over 20 years of being alive, the "no life" card has only ever been used by people as an excuse for their own lack of skill/proficiency in any subject ranging from physical over academic to ridiculous.

[Nebo]

It's an adequate reason not to take someone seriously. Since this is a debate based on player judgment, and with that comment they showed the judging capabilities of a three year old, I don't see the reason to value anything they have to contribute to this discussion. You can say whatever you want about me, I don't care in the first place. And what you say about THF is still groundless, apart from your personal preference.

No it's not. Because you are making assumptions regarding Babekeke's judgement based on things you don't know. Which is silly.

Was that a typo?

You must play with some really bad Thieves?

Yes, you did

lol, no I didn't. You won't find anything in either of those posts where I said those things either.

And plenty others throughout this thread and more threads on these and other forums and even in the game.

No one said any of those things in this thread.

That's inaccurate, as THF is one of the better tanks outside of Abyssea right now. THF has never needed Atma in order to tank and, in fact, I always use only DD Atma in the first place. And that doesn't work on many other jobs.

THF is not one of the better tanks outside of Abyssea now. THF duo with mage support is not tanking. Keeping hate of other melees on anything that needs a "Tank" outside of Abyssea is not something THF excells at. Particularly because you can't use SA/TA to tank, because our WS are comparatively garbage on tanked mobs without stacking and so is our relative DPS if we can't ride SA/TA timers.

That said, ANY job can be made to tank with the right amount of support. BRDS, BLMS, WHMS, you name it. That does not mean THF is a good tank, or even one of the better ones. It was fundamentally designed against being able to use its JA's in this situation.

All Abyssea "tanks" use DD atma, and it works for every Abbysea DD "tank" job. Why? Because support jobs and WHM's have limitless MP, DD's have crazy boosted HP, etc. This is really basic stuff.

SA/TA don't deal much damage, neither inside nor outside of Abyssea.

Perhaps if you don't gear for them properly?

As simple as that. I'm right, you're wrong. Nothing to argue, move along.

LOL. I have to thank you for that. I haven't actually physically laughed out loud from a post in a long time. Keep that sense of humor alive!

Or stick around and keep throwing insults, I don't care much either way, you just keep making yourself look ridiculous.

So much comedy in one post! lol. I love it!

From my experience in over six years of playing this game and over 20 years of being alive, the "no life" card has only ever been used by people as an excuse for their own lack of skill/proficiency in any subject ranging from physical over academic to ridiculous.

Ah, there's the problem. You lack experience. That's ok, you're still young yet. Wisdom starts accumulate as you get older. It takes some longer than others, but you'll eventually experience different things and make less silly assumptions as you get older. One would hope anyway.