Thief Job Ability Synergy: This is not 2005

[noodles355]

If they're stupid enough to move out of the way of Trick Attack, chances are they don't actually know what Collaborator does. So that's irrelevant. This point is only really worthwhile in EXP situations, so saving a mage is fairly moot too.
On NMs, if they are meleeing, they will either be proccing red, blue, or be completely useless and just there for extra (likely not needed) damage. If it's the latter, then if they wont let me trick attack them after explaining myself then I would just kick them. They're not contributing anything worthwhile. Sure, this goes against the point I'm about to make below but it's to make them learn.

For point 2: Increasing your damage increases the killspeed. A Good player knows that the total killspeed is more important than his personal damage. So the point stands: Make better friends or find a better linkshell with people who realise letting you Trick Attack both increases chance for TH proc and increases killspeed.
To be honest, the first point alone should be enough for most people to just suck it up.

You shouldn't be so ready to dismiss point three. The same argument can be used for a Sam, and overwhelm. If You're tanking and they want to get their overwhelm boost then they're gonna have to stand in front of you, so TA them.

You are being far too weak and soft about the whole situation. If they can't do their job properly, get rid of them and get someone who can. And don't try and argue about having to find a replacement and just making do, because everything you will be meleeing/tanking fulltime can be killed with just Thief and !! procs. Anyone who's there who's TA-able is a waste of a party slot anyway.

The enmity really isn't a problem.
Either: Hate will be capped for both parties.
Or: You're hate will be capped and so one melee strike after TAing someone, you will have hate again.

Obviously unless you do it at the start of a fight, but after just one evisceration and some melee rounds, a 1k Trick Attack shouldn't be enough to lose you hate for any remotely significant length of time. The VE of it on it's own is not enough after you've been popping 2-3k WSs and evading monster attacks the way thief does.

There really isn't a problem with the ability. Sometimes the enmity is unwanted. Sometimes the enmity is wanted. Most of the time it's not wanted, enmity is irrelevant anyway because the mob dies so fast, or hate is capped for everyone, and the whm will be able to keep you alive with no worries at all.

Just because you've played with some idiots doesn't mean the ability is bad. I've never had a problem with someone after 1 or 2 attempts. But that's because unlike you who comes complaining on a forum, I do something about it. I tell them to suck it up and do it, and if they don't I get rid of them. In fact I almost never have a problem with anyone doing it at all as the friends I make and the linkshell I'm in consist of good players, not retards.

[Nebo]

If they're stupid enough to move out of the way of Trick Attack, chances are they don't actually know what Collaborator does. So that's irrelevant. This point is only really worthwhile in EXP situations, so saving a mage is fairly moot too.

I disagree that saving mages is a moot point in exp parties, but the real reason that collaborator isn't the solution to that part of the issue is that it will ultimately slow you down. Because collaborator is so dependant on when you use it in the fight (in an exp situation) it means you aren't able to ride your Trick Attack timer if you are using collaborator as a crutch.

For point 2: Increasing your damage increases the killspeed. A Good player knows that the total killspeed is more important than his personal damage.

This one I'm lost on. Damage increases kill speed and kill speed is more important than damage?

So the point stands: Make better friends or find a better linkshell with people who realise letting you Trick Attack both increases chance for TH proc and increases killspeed.
To be honest, the first point alone should be enough for most people to just suck it up.

This is essentially the point I am trying to make. I find it unreasonable how much is required of other people for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack to work with any level of consistency. Doing your job as a damage dealer is also now their job.

Everything you will be meleeing/tanking fulltime can be killed with just Thief and !! procs.

I agree, which is why the THF is tanking most of the time. In this example you give landing sneak attack and trick attack as timers allow goes right out the window.

Even when you can land them in these situations, the job is designed against you being able to stand in front of a monster, evade attacks AND deal damage. Just because we are constantly finding ways around those hoops and land them in situations they were not intended to land does not mean the design isn't flawed.

There really isn't a problem with the ability. Sometimes the enmity is unwanted. Sometimes the enmity is wanted. Most of the time it's not wanted

That's interesting. I find that if a fundamental job ability is mostly unwanted/not needed...there is a problem with it.

Just because you've played with some idiots doesn't mean the ability is bad. I've never had a problem with someone after 1 or 2 attempts. But that's because unlike you who comes complaining on a forum, I do something about it. I tell them to suck it up and do it, and if they don't I get rid of them. In fact I almost never have a problem with anyone doing it at all as the friends I make and the linkshell I'm in consist of good players, not retards.

Now we are just getting silly. When I created this thread it was not to "complain on a forum." There are a lot of threads on this very page with lots of people "complaining" about these abilities. What I did was try to describe the limitations as best I could and offer a thought out, balanced solution or two.

But since you brought up idiots and retards. Does that mean that idiots and retards don't deserve to play? Some of my very best friends are idiots and retards. I love playing with them. Does that mean as a THF I shouldn't be able to do my job? Or should I have some flexibility with which to do it myself?

Clearly we disagree, but I feel like Thief should have some flexibility to do their own job without depending so much on other players to do it for them.

[noodles355]

I disagree that saving mages is a moot point in exp parties, but the real reason that collaborator isn't the solution to that part of the issue is that it will ultimately slow you down. Because collaborator is so dependant on when you use it in the fight (in an exp situation) it means you aren't able to ride your Trick Attack timer if you are using collaborator as a crutch.

Collaborator is irrelevant in Exp parties, as is using it to "save the mage". You know why? Because mobs die in under 30-20 seconds. With such high crit rate and low delay, one attack round will pull hate off a mage. Mobs usually die after 2-3 WS. Sometimes they get OHKO from 90. Mages, even with crap merit abyssites will still have 1000-1500ish HP, even if they do take a few hits, there is close to zero possibility of them dying.

This one I'm lost on. Damage increases kill speed and kill speed is more important than his damage?

I thought it would be fairly simple: By forcing you to miss Trick Attack, he is lowering your damage output and ultimately how fast you kill them mob. If you trick attack him chances are it wont lower his damage output and wont slow down the speed you kill them mob. Infact, if it's a War or Mnk, it will actually increase their damage output by letting them get some counter-attacks in and again increase killspeed. If he is a good DD then he will be hate capped, will be co-tanking with you and the enmity transfer is irrelevant. If he is a bad DD, then you will get hate back off him immidiately anyway, and the chances are the damage he stopped to put up seigan or utsusemi again won't have offset your Trick Attack damage.

This is essentially the point I am trying to make. I find it unreasonable how much is required of other people for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack to work with any level of consistency. Doing your job as a damage dealer is also now their job.

You are really overplaying how much "work" they have to do. On anything that matters, the melee tends to stand still (unless the mob has moved). He doesn't have to do anything for you to land your trick attack. You do the positioning yourself. All that's required of him is to stand still, which to be honest most people do do.

I agree, which is why the THF is tanking most of the time. In this example you give landing sneak attack and trick attack as timers allow goes right out the window.

Even when you can land them in these situations, the job is designed against you being able to stand in front of a monster, evade attacks AND deal damage. Just because we are constantly finding ways around those hoops and land them in situations they were not intended to land does not mean the design isn't flawed.

It's called a sacrifice. You sacrifice some of your damage output to increase overall efficiency in lowman groups. In this case, being efficient is only having the Thf and !! proccers, as it means more drops for everyone and less NMs to be farmed. Can you not think of any other job that has to sacrifice their damage to be the most efficient?

That's interesting. I find that if a fundamental job ability is mostly unwanted/not needed...there is a problem with it.

You misunderstand. The point is not that it's unwanted/needed most of the time. It's that it is wanted/needed some of the time. And because it's needed some of the time, that is reason enough to not remove the enmity properties from it.

Now we are just getting silly. When I created this thread it was not to "complain on a forum." There are a lot of threads on this very page with lots of people "complaining" about these abilities. What I did was try to describe the limitations as best I could and offer a thought out, balanced solution or two.

But since you brought up idiots and retards. Does that mean that idiots and retards don't deserve to play? Some of my very best friends are idiots and retards. I love playing with them. Does that mean as a THF I shouldn't be able to do my job? Or should I have some flexibility with which to do it myself?

To each their own. If you want to play with shit players be my guest but dont cry when you cant play your job properly. Idiots and retards can do what the heck they want, but they can do it outside of my party. Just because you have low standards and/or don't care who you play with doesn't mean there is a problem with your job.

[Nebo]

I thought it would be fairly simple: By forcing you to miss Trick Attack, he is lowering your damage output and ultimately how fast you kill them mob. If you trick attack him chances are it wont lower his damage output and wont slow down the speed you kill them mob. Infact, if it's a War or Mnk, it will actually increase their damage output by letting them get some counter-attacks in and again increase killspeed.

That same argument can easily go the other way. If its a NIN or THF you've just gimped their damage. There are a limited number of jobs that would be able to use abilities like counter or retaliation in the first place, there are many more that have no such benefit and really don't want any added enmity. Even that WAR will have to drop Berserk. They are being forced to play your playstyle so you can deal your damage.

It's called a sacrifice. You sacrifice some of your damage output to increase overall efficiency in lowman groups. In this case, being efficient is only having the Thf and !! proccers, as it means more drops for everyone and less NMs to be farmed. Can you not think of any other job that has to sacrifice their damage to be the most efficient?

Not as much as THF does. It is the very opposite of efficient when your 2 hour, your evasion, and tanking abilities, (not to mention your ability pull hate with shear melee DoT) are designed to work against using your fundamental Damage Dealing job abilities.

The point is not that it's unwanted/needed most of the time. It's that it is wanted/needed some of the time. And because it's needed some of the time, that is reason enough to not remove the enmity properties from it.

It is definately unwanted/needed most of the time. (even you just said this in your previous post lol) No one said anything about removing the enmity properties from Trick Attack.

I never said the job ability didn't have use. I said the opportunies to use it as a DD tool and its usefulness as an enmity tool are unreasonably limited.

This is not an overstatement.

[noodles355]

That same argument can easily go the other way. If its a NIN or THF you've just gimped their damage.

How? Innin? An Innin Nin is going to cap hate at a very similar speed to you, so you fall back to the capped hate - enmity not important argument. And another thief? Really? You realise they can do the same to you? If you have two thiefs the best thing to do is TA each other as much as you can. You really are now trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

Not as much as THF does. It is the very opposite of efficient when your 2 hour, your evasion, and tanking abilities, (not to mention your ability pull hate with shear melee DoT) are designed to work against using your fundamental Damage Dealing job abilities.

How is your evasion working against you? You realise the more you evade, the less you have to cast shadows, the more you keep swinging, and the more damage you do? You're complaining about the 2hr? So we have a shit 2hr. Guess what? We're not the only job that does. Get over it. For pure standard melee DD and WS you don't think any other job has to sacrifice as much as thief? What about Ranger? A job that at 75 was often forced to sub /Drg ONLY for it's gimped 33% enmity shed high jump. A job who can never just go all out with attacks and WSs for fear of moving the mob. Rng has to sacrifice so much mroe damage potential than a tanking thief. Especially if you do like we are trying to show you and actually use your abilities instead of whining. Stop crying that it doesn't work because it does. The fact you can't make it work is a comment on you and not the Thief job.

It is definately unwanted/needed most of the time. (even you just said this in your previous post lol) No one said anything about removing the enmity properties from Trick Attack.

I never said the job ability didn't have use. I said the opportunies to use it as a DD tool and its usefulness as an enmity tool are unreasonably limited.

This is not an overstatement.

It's usefulness as an enmity tool are limited, true. It's "unreasonable" usefulness as a DD tool aren't. That is an over statement. Or are you 100% correct in this topic and everyone else who's replied saying "Actually, I think it's fine" "I am able to do it fine" "I think you're over-reacting" is wrong? Because I wasn't the only one who said that. I'm apparantly just the only one who ruffled your feathers and got you in a huff about it.
I'm not sure where I took wanting to remove the enmity properties from trick attack from, sorry.

[Arcon]

Whereas I believe that your view of the game is fundamentally wrong. This is a matter of opinion, and is pointless arguing about. What you're asking for is to make songs and buffs unlimited range, to cater to the needs of people who run from them.

This game is a cooperative effort, many jobs depend on the collaboration of several people to work properly. The more efficient the people, the more efficient the gameplay. It's a matter of moderation. If a job ability is virtually unusable because it needs extreme cooperative effort of several people to be pulled off, that would probably need revising. This on the other hand works fairly well as it is and I don't see a need to upgrade it in any way. THF especially is a job that relies on party cooperation, and I don't see a need to remove that. You seem to want it to work perfectly, every 60 seconds flat. Why even have a job ability, just let the mob take a flat 1000 damage for every 60s the THF is on its hate list.

Simply put, in my opinion it works very well as it is and I don't see a need to improve it. The limitations placed on it add some skill into the equation, but the same applies to almost every ability in the game, and again, I think that's how it should be.

[Nebo]

Which is cool. We disagree. I respect that oppinion.

THF especially is a job that relies on party cooperation, and I don't see a need to remove that.

I suggested the tweaks I did, not to remove party cooperation from the job. I just don't want to be so limited in the abscence of that party cooperation. More so, a balance between the two that would offer some flexibility in both situations.

[Laphine]

I liked this idea because i low man stuff a lot. So it's not even a mob turning or player moving issue.

When i first leveled thief with an exp ally it sucked though. I hate missing SA and i missed way too much. Today i can counter that by soloing my own mob, or disengaging sooner to attack the next mob. This is an ability that atmas provided, although i could still disengage back then, and actually did, but well, people whined ("assist the MA!").

So yeah, i would enjoy very much such a change one way or another.

I like ideas that change sa/ta damage too. If they kept the position restriction but provided a significant boost to their damage, i would not be against at all. According to SE thieves specialize in covert actions and aim for the perfect opportunity to attack from behind. This perfect oportunity should, of course, translate in good damage. With this in mind, for me it's unreasonable that thieves are not ws epeen kings.

Still, sa/ta today doesn't provide a big boost to our damage, and removing restrictions won't change it much. I'll even dare say that a thief that doesn't sa/ta isn't so bad of a thief. Before abyssea and lvs75+ i would laugh at such thing.

[thefinalrune]

Ha, I was going to make a post but Arcon seems to have hit every point I wanted to make.

In short, I really find no failings about thief at all outside of the practically complete uselessness and unreliability of Steal, Mug and Despoil.

[Nebo]

Hypocracy. "It never works QQ" is not an overstatement at all of course.

An overstatement of my overstatement. OVERSTATEMENTS FOR EVERYBODY!

In all seriousness I am fine with people disagreeing with me and thinking THF is fine. I love the job so its no suprise to me that others do. I know that THF has the potential to be VERY powerful. My only qualm is with the limit imposed on the opportunity to fulfil our current potential. I am definitely not "in a huff" about all of this. I quite enjoy the discussion.

If it aint broke, why fix it? I'll say it again, the problem isn't the ability, it's your inability.

lol it is definitely not my inability to land Sneak Attack or Trick Attack that has brought us to this discussion. It is because of my ability to really push the maximum limits of the Thief job that I see where those limitations lie.

No offence but I don't give two shits what matters to you

I do believe you just got the point. You're right. "Anything that matters" is a subjective idea.

There's simply nothing wrong with THF. THF is a really well balanced job, and especially in the current state the game is in, it's a great job.

Thief, as a job, is not fine simply because right now every one with a Weapon Skill that can critical is on god mode inside Abyssea. We are going to leave that place in the not so distant future. We need updates for what Thief will be moving forward.

And I personally think being able to trick and sneak attack every 50-60 seconds seconds without any of the positioning troubles would be overpowered. Thief is not a pure DD. It is a hybrid job. Stop trying to make it a pure DD.

I think you forget how hard it was to keep up with the (better designed) heavy hitter Damage Dealers before abysea, even being able to ride those timers to the max that their positional limitations would allow.

I think this and the next quote are the fundamental points we disagree on. Thief is not a hybrid job. It is a Damage Dealer with positional restrictions that can apply Treasure Hunter. Treasure Hunter is not a reason to make us a gimp DD. Are you happy with RNG being gimp now that they have bounty shot?

A hybrid job by design means that THF can do a lot of things and fill several roles. But we cannot. Our enmity abilities are mostly unwanted because they are not useful (even as admitted by you). Collaborator is really only useful for THF tanking (which we were not designed to do). Almost all of our other job abilities that aren't related to dealing damage are, well I would call them a joke, but it's really not funny anymore.

I agree with Arcon on this. THF is not a tank, was not designed to tank and can only tank inside abyssea because of atmas. This is true:

Some abilities simply weren't meant to work solo. And THF is one job that works heavily in that direction, it always has. The very idea behind Trick Attack is to be used to give someone else enmity, not to deal damage or increase theTreasure Hunter effect. I don't even think SE imagined THF to be as good a tank as it turned out to be, and I'm pretty sure after Abyssea it won't be anymore.

I absoutely agree. But trick attack isn't all that useful or wanted for its intended purpose. I disagree that this is the way it should be. Especially with the landscape of the game now and the way people play it.

The only qualms I personally have about THF are Steal/Despoil and Mug

That is a good example. Aurasteal, steal and despoil. Three abilities tied to one stupid long 5 minute recast timer (wtf?) with unreasonably low success rates (which kind of doesn't even matter because there is really not much in the game worth stealing). Out of these three, only aurasteal comes even remotely close to resembling something useful, but it still isn't because the recast timer is too long.

Mug. Enough said. Quite possibly the most useless ability in the game, on a 15 minute timer. lol.

Hide would be useful if it worked on more things.

Perfect Dodge. I've always thought this should be a job ability instead of a 2 hour. As a 2 hour it fails pretty hard.

Accomplice and collaborator were good ideas with failed implementation. Tied to the same timer, severe distance limitations. At least collaborator is still somewhat useful.

Flee is pretty good.

Even our prized evasion cannot stand on its own due to the evasion cap, the fact that we have no other defensive job abilities, and we have paper thin defense. It still requires shadows to be really exploited.

I left most of this stuff alone because our non DD stuff is such a train wreck it would be a lot of effort I don't think THF will get to fix.

Virtually everything useful we have is DD stuff. If THF is such a party oriented job and not meant to solo or tank, why do we have all this crazy evasion and a defensive 2 hour that we aren't designed to use to help a party? It's bad design.

I bring up sneak attack and trick attack because I think it would be the most subtle thing to tweak, while maintaining balance and creating a bit of synergy with the stuff we already have.

Square Enix has already said a few times that they are thinking of adjustments to bring THF to the front line and dictate the pace of battle. So with updates moving forward, those are the types of suggestions I make.

Besides, what is the point of a job adjustment update if it doesn't change anything?