Looking at Forum Moderation Standards

[Kensagaku]

Hello Everyone!

First I just need to say we did need to remove a few posts from the thread as they were off topic. Do try to keep the conversation to the topic at hand please.

While I'm not necessarily able to address all your concerns, I would like to provide insight on a few topics that came up.

In regards to the manner in which the Moderation team speaks on the forums. We try to speak politely and clearly in all our communications, both in game and on the forums, which sometimes leads people to rather logical conclusion that everything we say is "scripted." While I understand how it may seem that way, we do endeavor to provide the best service.

This leads me into the second answer to a question that was posed. You may recognize our names from within Final Fantasy XI if you've ever spoken to a Game Master in game. Some of the Game Master Team does work both In Game and on the Forums. (However, please keep in mind that because issues are handled differently, Forum issues can only be addressed through the forum, and In Game Issues only addressed in game.)

I just want you all to know your complaints have been heard, and while I can't address each of them individually, I will see if I can bring this thread to the attention of others who may be able to provide more insight.

Meanwhile, please do try to keep the conversation on topic.

As always, you can review the Guidelines here:

FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1

Thank you very much for your continued feedback!

Thank you very much for your reply, Melodicya! It's very much appreciated, and it goes a long way to showing us posters that you guys are listening. I understand your difficulties and concerns; after all, this may be a game for us, but for you guys it's a business and a job. As a result, you're expected to behave on a professional note, and we all know how robotic the professionalism has to sound sometimes. xD

But again, it's nice to see that you guys really are there, and the occasional post like this really does help. Especially since you're passing it along to others who may help. Once again, thank you for your time!

[Starcade]

Why must stuff always happen when I go to nap? Alright, to address a few things here.

First off, I'm sorry about removing the tags, but I want to keep this thread fairly serious. This was not an attempt at a troll thread nor was it meant to stir up controversy. Starcade, I apologize for directly pointing you out, but it was a recent and proper example. Blocking out your name wouldn't have done anything because of your... unique... personality. So if you felt dragged into this, my apologies. Truely.

I wasn't mad at you per se.

The thing is that I wanted to make clear my abject disrespect for most of the US playerbase. You made reference to what I said to someone else, and that was basically because I felt he was the type of person of which there are far too many of in this game.

[Korpg]

I just want you all to know your complaints have been heard, and while I can't address each of them individually, I will see if I can bring this thread to the attention of others who may be able to provide more insight.

I understand that you have to babysit a lot of little children on this forum it seems like, but some things seems like they were deleted because people hit the report button on others just because they don't like them.

Several of my posts in previous threads were deleted because a moderator stated that they were either "derogatory" or "off topic." If they actually read those posts, they would have seen that I was referring to an question asked or responding to a point made in another's post. How can that be either off topic or derogatory? The posts were answering questions made by others.

I'm sure you have a log of users who use the report button, but maybe you should include in that log who reports who, and you might see a lot of people abusing this system even though they are putting "meaningful" replies in the report button.

[svengalis]

I know there have been threads like this previously, and I know that most of them got shut down pretty quickly. But at the same time, this is an important issue, and while I'm not one to whine and complain about every little bad thing I come across, enough is enough.

Now I have noticed an alarming phenomenon in a number of threads; the OP of the thread, by smashing the Report Button on everything that s/he dislikes, causes posts to get deleted quickly. This isn't a universal problem; after all, there is a reason that we have a report button, to report the posts that violate forum guidelines and cause trouble that is detrimental to the forums. These sorts of posts? I can see them getting deleted, it's all fair and well.

But that's not the problem. The problem is that this applies to any and all posts that (generally) the OP of a thread does not like. S/He hits report a few dozen times, and boom, the post with any disagreements is gone, and s/he can smile and be on his/her way with his/her own side of the argument intact, all opposition deleted away.

Moderators, this is a cry to you to actually... y'know, moderate. I'm not sure what the problem is here, but I'm sensing a very impersonal touch that is really starting to hurt the quality of these forums more and more by the day. Let me give you an example:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2cwwf9g.png

Now, let us look at the posts that were deleted. The one that's essentially "get out" is understandably deleted. That was an unfortunately rude and (although true) improper way of handling this situation. The one beneath it was that Starcade had a poor attitude, which was stating an obvious fact that most could see and did not need to be deleted.

However, look at Starcade's still intact post. It says, quite bluntly (and I apologize for my choice of wording, but I'm trying to remain accurate in my quoting), to "go screw yourself." This is an obviously rude and derogatory remark that only serves to hurt the forums, not help encourage people to post and enjoy their time here. I have reported it as is part of my responsibility as one of the members of the forum. Yet no action was taken (scratch that, now the whole thread has been nuked, I guess that's just what happens after X number of reports).

But you can see my point, mods. Are you really there, observing threads as needed, following up on those reported posts and actually looking at them before you delete them? Are you looking to see the context of the posts around it, to see what is going on? If so, why would you leave a clearly offensive post that trumps either of the ones surrounding it and delete the other two? It makes no sense.

So I ask you, mods: Can you give us some sort of sign you're even paying attention?

I think that was the appropriate reply for that post.

[Kensagaku]

I think that was the appropriate reply for that post.

Well I suppose I should expect disagreement. Unfortunately, I have to politely disagree as well. I feel that such direct and derogatory comments being left alone while other less offensive (though still offensive, I won't debate that point) comments directly around it are deleted. I feel that there is no standard in place as a result; if something gets enough reports, it is offhandedly deleted. If it's not reported enough times, it won't even get looked at. I personally reported the post I showed, and nothing came of it. Admittedly the thread got nuked later but at the time I felt the response to be a poor one.

[GlobalVariable]

In regards to the manner in which the Moderation team speaks on the forums. We try to speak politely and clearly in all our communications, both in game and on the forums, which sometimes leads people to rather logical conclusion that everything we say is "scripted." While I understand how it may seem that way, we do endeavor to provide the best service.

That sentiment has more to do with seeing the exact same phrase repeated over and over and knowing it is obviously on a macro for the in game support and knowing the same people moderate the forums, so we're expecting it here as well.

(However, please keep in mind that because issues are handled differently, Forum issues can only be addressed through the forum, and In Game Issues only addressed in game.)!

There is no way to challenge an in forum decision without posting off topic. And since the content of your original post is GONE the next poster in the thread thinks you did something wrong.

the knowledgeable folks will get run off by posters who who troll/flame bait them then start hiding behind the rules or pretend they were attacked.

[Glamdring]

My high school principal once explained our ANEMIC student handbook: he didn't want to make a rule against throwing paint on the walls on Monday... because then he had to do the same thing for every other day of the week. Once you've made a rule on something you open the door for skirting that rule. I'm not a big fan of Autocratic action but there is a time to be Arbitrary, and moderation is one of those times.

Of course, there is a totally different problem. If you require a moderator to investigate if all or part of a post is a problem before they nuke a post that means that there are going to be delays, whereas a strict rule allows you to just say yes or no. It's an even bigger problem if we are talking about nuking a poster because you are talking about silencing a voice that may have some real points to share... and some personality issues we'd rather they didn't. I DO want them to investigate before they tell X that they and their thoughts are no longer welcome here. And how do you permaban someone that can simply create a new account?

Sticky issues, thoughts people?

My personal musings: a new thread limit, maybe 2/week from any given poster? Link the report button to the investigation priority list... both for the reporter and the reportee; if someone is simply trolling the threads trying to report everything by a specific poster it could be that the reporter is actually the instigator. Be a little quicker on locking threads, lock before they get out of hand and if you later decide that they are ok and reopen them fine. Make consequences in game for forum violations, personal attacks are personal attacks whether here on in game and shouldn't be tolerated in either place. A forum /blist feature so if I don't want to read X's drivel I don't even have to know it's there. A PM feature so if people have an issue they can maybe handle it outside the threads which are available to everyone.

I don't get along with everyone... and I really don't want to, I don't even think I'm required to try. I expect the same in return. My comments have stepped on some toes and some replies have stepped on mine. I have a thick skin for that type of thing, and I hope most do as well. I'm not here to demonstrate the benefits of sensitivity training, probably because I don't really believe in any. I do not flame others as a rule (but I do have a temper, and stupidity can infuriate me as few other things can [not ignorance, that's different]), I reply with the same reasoning I put into OP I start. I don't expect to be agreed with by everyone, but I do expect if you disagree with me that you use reasoning as well, and it would help if you shared it; if your reasoning is better than mine you may even get a convert!

[Glamdring]

I understand that you have to babysit a lot of little children on this forum it seems like, but some things seems like they were deleted because people hit the report button on others just because they don't like them.

Several of my posts in previous threads were deleted because a moderator stated that they were either "derogatory" or "off topic." If they actually read those posts, they would have seen that I was referring to an question asked or responding to a point made in another's post. How can that be either off topic or derogatory? The posts were answering questions made by others.

I'm sure you have a log of users who use the report button, but maybe you should include in that log who reports who, and you might see a lot of people abusing this system even though they are putting "meaningful" replies in the report button.

A reply to a question is a reply to a question, but if it isn't the OP's question, then it is off topic... TO THE THREAD. Not sure if that is grounds for deletion.

Derogatory content can occur at any time, even in the original post. A good guideline is if your post paraphrases the following snippet from my daily speech: "Hey you innefectual intelectual weenie pinhead" followed by almost anything. I work in the legal field, can't you tell?

[Greatguardian]

2/Day may be plenty sufficient for a new thread limit, in my opinion. There are plenty of good threads (or could be, rather) and only a handful of posters that come here are able to share information on advanced game mechanics if they choose to do so. Honestly, I think threads like the "Haste: A guide" thread would be significantly more common if said thread didn't become a cluster of crap after 3 pages, despite the OP being an absolutely wonderful resource. I'm sure Hordecore makes far more than 2 threads a day so even a limit like that would cut down on his ... special brand of posting.

That aside, I was originally fairly impressed with how the forum moderation staff was handling things when these forums were instituted. Even post alterations were very specific, and some came with specific commentary from the moderator about why things were changed. Unfortunately, and this is honestly not entirely the moderator's fault, it seems like we, the posters, have flooded them with far too many Reports to handle and stretched them too thin.

As Glam said, when you have a queue of 100+ reported posts to sift through, eventually you're going to just start deleting anything that looks inflammatory just to get through them all. The ideal solution would be to simply stop posters who excessively spam the Report button (There are a couple whom I'm sure everyone can name who very blatantly abuse the Report button every time they disagree with someone). This would not only curtail the reporting of non-abusive posts, but would also cut down on the volume of Report calls being handed to the GM staff, allowing them to better respond to the calls that they do receive.

Since I'm not sure if they'd be allowed to take such direct action, it may just become prudent to log the Reports each poster hands out and investigate those if they appear excessive. Filing false complaints is a big deal, and it ultimately lowers the quality of service we are able to receive from our GM staff.