Inquiry to the Devs

[Devrom]

Because Red Mage being weaker at melee then White Mage and soon to be Bard makes a lot of sense as well.

hexa strike outside abyssea is nothing special, you know that, right?

[Seriha]

I'd hold on the whole "END OF DAYS!" aspect of Tranquil Heart until we see what it does. For all we know, we'll only get level 1. That might be -5 Enmity for cures. Okay, so you change your gear some so you'll have more +Enmity on. Done. Now, the Black Magic aspect was pretty stupid, especially if you consider people /RDM or /DRK getting full enmity for debuffs they very rarely landed, if ever. Ideally they could've made it so you only got full enmity if it landed, but then that's also a bit of a tank nerf since you'd have to wait until stuff wore off to try again.

[Duelle]

I'd hold on the whole "END OF DAYS!" aspect of Tranquil Heart until we see what it does. For all we know, we'll only get level 1. That might be -5 Enmity for cures. Okay, so you change your gear some so you'll have more +Enmity on. Done. Now, the Black Magic aspect was pretty stupid, especially if you consider people /RDM or /DRK getting full enmity for debuffs they very rarely landed, if ever. Ideally they could've made it so you only got full enmity if it landed, but then that's also a bit of a tank nerf since you'd have to wait until stuff wore off to try again.

This is why I feel RDM should get Flash back. Still, the healer trait should not be something that's on all the time, which is where most of the ire is coming from, IMO. Sadly, there's not many ways to generate emnity as is unless they start tossing in spells designed only to generate emnity to cover the gap created by cures. Seeing that PLD is unnaffected by this, I have a feeling that is not on their priority list.

[Tamarsamar]

I'd hold on the whole "END OF DAYS!" aspect of Tranquil Heart until we see what it does. For all we know, we'll only get level 1. That might be -5 Enmity for cures. Okay, so you change your gear some so you'll have more +Enmity on. Done. Now, the Black Magic aspect was pretty stupid, especially if you consider people /RDM or /DRK getting full enmity for debuffs they very rarely landed, if ever. Ideally they could've made it so you only got full enmity if it landed, but then that's also a bit of a tank nerf since you'd have to wait until stuff wore off to try again.

You're joking, right?

Even with Cures, we couldn't keep hate if our lives depended on it, anyway. Tranquil Heart is much less the "END OF DAYS" as it is the cockroach that spits on the former location of a civilization that has already been leveled with an atomic bomb. Since it literally serves no purpose but spite, we're naturally going to get as many levels of it as they can fit.

Not to mention, have you *tried* gearing for Enmity+ on Red Mage? Are you aware of how absurdly little gear we have for it? I mean, you would've thought that S-E would've added more gear with Magical bonuses on it that came with Enmity+ as a "downside" . . . but the only place that really happens is in mediocre Einherjar equipment with PDT+% on it as well.

[Seriha]

With a lot of tanking being damage-based these days, we're screwed without CDC even if cures are are normal or debuffs were as they used to be. Good luck convincing DDs to /THF to TA on you, too.

Personally, tanking for an alliance was never a role I was particularly interested in as it meant yet another gear set and of course fighting with PLDs and NINs for the spot back in the day. I don't really miss the days of "Gimme a little bit of time to build hate" either, and have plenty of horror stories seeing rival shells take forever and a day to kill crap with RDM tanks. To me, not being able to tank HNMs is like not having Cure V, you might be able to manage under the proper conditions, but it shouldn't be expected. Still wanna tank EXP or the odd quest/mission fight? Go for it. Like it or not, the whole "No Effect" side of enmity gain was pretty much an exploit, though.

[Carth]

Personally, tanking for an alliance was never a role I was particularly interested in as it meant yet another gear set and of course fighting with PLDs and NINs for the spot back in the day.

No different than fighting with the WHMs and SCHs today.

Like it or not, the whole "No Effect" side of enmity gain was pretty much an exploit, though.

"Exploit" is often an overused term that tell others that it's a bad thing. Everyone using Utsusemi as /nin is an exploit, as well as using capped evasion and +evasion gear to solo NMs is also an exploit. As far as I know, RDMs who wanted to tank HNMs needed awesome gear, shell out large amounts of money, and needed to prove themselves worthy of the task. If anything, abusing CE gains through enfeebling spells was the least exploitable out of anything, and even so, that doesn't mean it was bad.

[Duelle]

"Exploit" is often an overused term that tell others that it's a bad thing. Everyone using Utsusemi as /nin is an exploit, as well as using capped evasion and +evasion gear to solo NMs is also an exploit. As far as I know, RDMs who wanted to tank HNMs needed awesome gear, shell out large amounts of money, and needed to prove themselves worthy of the task. If anything, abusing CE gains through enfeebling spells was the least exploitable out of anything, and even so, that doesn't mean it was bad.

Wouldn't it have been better to give RDM the means to actually (if only passably) tank instead of having to abuse CE from enfeebles to get the job done? Not to mention the gear you speak of, to my recollection, included a set to become completely immune to spell interrupts. Which was probably an oversight by the devs just like the old haste cap and the old TP floor.

[Carth]

Wouldn't it have been better to give RDM the means to actually (if only passably) tank instead of having to abuse CE from enfeebles to get the job done? Not to mention the gear you speak of, to my recollection, included a set to become completely immune to spell interrupts. Which was probably an oversight by the devs just like the old haste cap and the old TP floor.

Of course it would've. And more specifically you needed -Spell Interruption, Fast Cast/Haste set, -PDT and -MDT for magic-spamming mobs (which is where RDM tanking shined the most).

RDM tanking anything at all probably wasn't part of Square's ambitions post RotZ where they made PLD, but neither was NIN tanking, or any DDs going /NIN to negate any and all damage, or even RDMs abusing DoT kiting to kill HNMs and Gods. Fact is, Square gives the players the tools needed to play the game and the playerbase uses them to every advantage, and Square either gives the stamp of approval or vetoes it. If Square doesn't kill it, who's to say they're wrong?

My point is calling something an exploit doesn't make it bad. Since Square bluntly killed RDM tanking they obviously didn't want it. I'm still baffled as to why it took them five years to do it though.

[Supersun]

It's still a stronger WS then most. It's certainly better then Evisceration. The only reason Whm wasn't exactly a large DD threat before abyssea was simply because they had accuracy issues and that virtually NONE of their gear had accuracy. Certainly outside of abyssea they won't have RR I doubt that they will still have the same accuracy issues they had at 75 just from the fact that they have a crap ton more club skill now due to the increased level cap.

[Seriha]

It arguably didn't pick up until you started seeing NIN/DRKs floating around, who in part shared some of RDM's hate-gaining tools. If RDMs didn't pick up on this and add things like their -interrupt sets, innate stoneskin/phalanx, and an easier time of capping recasts, it's possible the nerf may have never happened since the NIN/DRKs were at least reliant on an outside source of Refresh, and thus more vulnerable to things that could mess with your MP.

In general, I'm not against the concept of RDM tanking, I'd just like it to be done right. Exploit, loophole, oversight, whatever you wanna call it, the "No Effect" might not have been bad, but it wasn't good game design, either. Instead, consider what would make RDM a unique tank, as for now, we're basically and always have been a pseudo-PLD in this regard.