Inquiry to the Devs

[Devrom]

lets be honest with ourselves. most of us didnt even care that much about our DD potential pre-abyssea and recent major updates. now with all those broken atmas and cruor buffs coupled with evisceration and cdc, we are like "weeee~ lets kick some ass!". now with the upcoming voidwatch stuff and such, rdm will regain its prosperity and we will go back to "meh, who cares about DDing" because simply it would make things worse. who in the right mind would let a rdm tp on the upcoming end game stuff? no one. would you even seriously ask to do so? no.

for all these years, SE has been modifying the jobs according to the intentions of the player base, like how they thought of war as a main tank, pld and nin as support jobs etc at first. just look at those jobs now (inb4 lolpld). outside abyssea, rdm is simply far more useful than any other caster in most situations no matter how you look at it and you can't say it didn't make you happy that everyone used to look for a rdm before anything else. if they make rdm a better DD, they would nerf the mage aspects and then people would bitch about that. you can never make everyone happy with the changes. would you prefer being a really good mage and a weak DD or a week mage and a mediocre at best DD? like seriha had said, being "jack of all trades", while being fun and all in theory, is not nearly a good thing in an mmo. i would choose being the most useful mage than being a mediocre DD any day. abyssea shouldnt be the norm to decide if rdm needs to be a better DD since that thing is simply broken.

@ OP, i can't agree more. especially, no fencer while even brd has it + shield mastery with F skill = /facepalm

[Carth]

lets be honest with ourselves. most of us didnt even care that much about our DD potential pre-abyssea and recent major updates.

You couldn't be even farther from the truth.

[Devrom]

You couldn't be even farther from the truth.

well, maybe i should have written "that" in bold or capitals to emphasize now please ask yourself, would it be reasonable for rdm to be a match to real DDs? Red "Mage", remember? if you are gonna argue about the hybrid aspects of rdm, compare its melee potential to blu's overpowered spike damage spells, not main DDs. it is a matter of being too weak compared to the other hybrid job, not DDs being a lot more stronger compared to rdm.

[Eeek]

You couldn't be even farther from the truth.

It's all anecdotal, but I, and most the people I know, don't care about their RDM's melee capabilities. If we want to DD, we instead play our real DD jobs. When I play RDM, I'm either the main healer or playing as a supplemental mage to flesh out the backline. And my BLM's enfeebles, despite all the gear I carry for it, don't even approach the potency of my RDM's enfeebles (or curing and buffing capacity, for that matter).

I don't have the time or inclination to swap out half my active inventory (75/80 on RDM) in order to melee. When free time presents itself, I'd much rather nuke. The mage responsibilities I look to fill in party play would never allow me the time to melee to 100%TP, much less weaponskill. Besides, a not-insignificant amount of my BLM's nuking gear is equippable by RDM. I don't need a sword or dagger to pump out a decent amount of damage when the opportunities present themselves.

Of course, this is just my outlook on RDM. I aim to play it like a mage.

[Carth]

Of course, this is just my outlook on RDM. I aim to play it like a mage.

More power to you, and I personally don't really care, but it's a very large fact that RDM Melee has been an argument ever since 2004 and continues to be like that today. Only difference between then and now is that the general community is a lot smarter than before and Refresh/Convert is no longer unique to RDM.

[Supersun]

And my BLM's enfeebles, despite all the gear I carry for it, don't even approach the potency of my RDM's enfeebles.

Why are you casting Slow and Paralyze as Blm?

[Duelle]

lets be honest with ourselves. most of us didnt even care that much about our DD potential pre-abyssea and recent major updates.

Wrong. Discussion on melee has gone on for years. Yes, you had the bandwagon jumpers who were happy for the fast invites, but the melee camp has always existed and trying to push for melee adjustments. The benefit of having these forums is that at least our complains and discussions are taking place right at their doorstep, whereas before it was just the fansites where the community reps could conveniently ignore our discussion threads.

for all these years, SE has been modifying the jobs according to the intentions of the player base, like how they thought of war as a main tank, pld and nin as support jobs etc at first. just look at those jobs now (inb4 lolpld).

Admitedly, it would have taken more work to redesign WAR or nerf all the things players were abusing at the time (Utsusemi amongst them) that screwed with party dynamics. Not much of an excuse, though.

outside abyssea, rdm is simply far more useful than any other caster in most situations no matter how you look at it and you can't say it didn't make you happy that everyone used to look for a rdm before anything else.

It never made me happy because it was not the magic swordsman I had signed up to play more than 7 years ago. Also, everyone needed RDM because you only have two (three witrh COR) ways to regenerate MP before all that +refresh gear comes into play. BRD happened to be stupidly rare, so people always went for the next best thing.

if they make rdm a better DD, they would nerf the mage aspects and then people would bitch about that. you can never make everyone happy with the changes.

Stances could very easily fix this and make both camps happy.

abyssea shouldnt be the norm to decide if rdm needs to be a better DD since that thing is simply broken.

What abyssea did is bring to light all the shortcomings of RDM as a class. Yes, it was meant to be FFXI's last hurrah, but it did that as well. And instead of fixing things so that RDM can finally be a true working class (not a replacement for a WHM or a BRD), we seem to be going back to more of the same.

rdm is not even that bad of a DD in itself solo.

Repeat after me: Solo is irrelevant in a game built from the ground up on partying.

[Devrom]

Wrong. Discussion on melee has gone on for years. Yes, you had the bandwagon jumpers who were happy for the fast invites, but the melee camp has always existed and trying to push for melee adjustments. The benefit of having these forums is that at least our complains and discussions are taking place right at their doorstep, whereas before it was just the fansites where the community reps could conveniently ignore our discussion threads.

people from all kind of jobs ask for something now and then, it doesnt mean they are seriously expecting a big overhaul unless the extreme conditions like the uber rng nerf.

It never made me happy because it was not the magic swordsman I had signed up to play more than 7 years ago. Also, everyone needed RDM because you only have two (three witrh COR) ways to regenerate MP before all that +refresh gear comes into play. BRD happened to be stupidly rare, so people always went for the next best thing.

refresh isn't the only useful buff the rdm can offer <.<

Stances could very easily fix this and make both camps happy.

i agree that stances can make most rdms happy just for the change alone.

What abyssea did is bring to light all the shortcomings of RDM as a class. Yes, it was meant to be FFXI's last hurrah, but it did that as well. And instead of fixing things so that RDM can finally be a true working class (not a replacement for a WHM or a BRD), we seem to be going back to more of the same.

actually, it is even worse inside unless you get the chance to play the DD as long as the situation of the group allows. as we all know, most NMs are immune to slow or para or both and cure 4 is not cutting it

Repeat after me: Solo is irrelevant in a game built from the ground up on partying.

repeat after me: if you really wanna be that good of a DD, just level a real DD. i couldn't hold myself not to say this but after all the similar comments, there is not really much choice... yes, i am showing my true face ; ;

and btw, SE have never given you the guarantee that rdm will be an effective DD in group play. fencers are not warriors. it is simple as that. when you first start playing rdm, you should have taken a closer look at the "mage" part of the name and then decide if you really want to play as one. if war was obviously weaker than the other DDs, then i would agree that it doesn't make any sense.

if there was a war with a hundreds of fencers fighting on the field instead of real soldiers in real life, it would have been really fun to watch... (actually that would be fun in ffxi as well) but again, i am not saying that SE hasn't underlooked rdm as a fencer. E skill in parrying, fencer trait being given to war, bst and brd etc. what i am saying is people shouldn't expect that much in DD aspect.

sorry for the wall of text <.<

[Duelle]

repeat after me: if you really wanna be that good of a DD, just level a real DD.

This is a stock response. I've heard it enough to know you have nothing better to actually say. Hybrids have multiple roles, and they should be viable if you really want to use them to their fullest. RDM is far from this because the only real benefit a RDM brings is extra cures and refresh. Enfeebles have not made or broken a group's ability to clear a boss fight. Our nukes are second-rate. Our melee is a joke. I don't know about you, but we're way past the point where we should shut up and heal. Melee should be more than just a solo toy.

and btw, SE have never given you the guarantee that rdm will be an effective DD in group play. fencers are not warriors. it is simple as that. when you first start playing rdm, you should have taken a closer look at the "mage" part of the name and then decide if you really want to play as one. if war was obviously weaker than the other DDs, then i would agree that it doesn't make any sense.

The old and repeated "mage" argument. Nice try there, though as Seriha put so well, "better tell them BLUs to go home, too".

Yes, the ideology behind the suggestions and ideas in the melee thread come from various directions, and some do indeed stand on their own and are unable to mesh with other ideas. This is fine because we're basically kicking ideas around on how to either improve melee overall or integrate it into what is currently expected of us. The goal is the make our swords worth a damn. Doesn't matter if they go with Swords' suggestions, or my own, or Seriha's, or Carth's, or Supersun's, or anyone else who contributed to that thread, so long as we reach the actual goal.

[Devrom]

This is a stock response. I've heard it enough to know you have nothing better to actually say. Hybrids have multiple roles, and they should be viable if you really want to use them to their fullest. RDM is far from this because the only real benefit a RDM brings is extra cures and refresh. Enfeebles have not made or broken a group's ability to clear a boss fight. Our nukes are second-rate. Our melee is a joke. I don't know about you, but we're way past the point where we should shut up and heal. Melee should be more than just a solo toy.

i have given you all kinds of responses. read a bit more instead of nitpicking. the only real benefit a RDM brings is extra cures and refresh? please... enfeebles do make fights a lot more easier overall; safer, faster, call it whatever you like depending on the fight but not useless or i would say you are just clueless. Our nukes are second-grade because the "jack of all trades" thing you and others have been advocating dictates that rdm wouldn't be first-grade in anything. our melee is weak but not a joke unless you dont give a shit to try and get better. about shuting up and healing, i have never said that. i am not even carrying my staves anymore except a few things lol though that is about to change with the next update. TP and WS sets take more than enough space.

The old and repeated "mage" argument. Nice try there, though as Seriha put so well, "better tell them BLUs to go home, too".

actually that wasn't uncommon not to bring BLUs to endgame stuff lol. lets see...tiamat, khimaira, ixion and yilbegan? and you happen to know that BLUs used to be Cannonball bots in those fights, right? khimaira stuff are almost only trophies even when it was first released, tiamat is for people who didnt have blm or smn but blu, fought for gil with a shitty drop rate, ixion is a bit guaranteed gil and that is it and yilbegan is not even worth the effort with shit drop rates and not even appealing drops considering the effort. not even considering the fact that your group have to claim all these for you to spam cannonball and afk inbetween. who cares if they can spam some spells to kill an xp mob faster than an actual DD? even the vast majority of BG (as most people here calls "the home of elitist pricks") agrees that BLU can't be considered as a real DD, especially the people who are into all kinds of number crunching and parse digging, not useless discussions.

i look at this way; rdm: more mage less DD, blu: less mage more DD and you know what? it makes sense. yes, it has "mage" in its name but it had to be the opposite of the first hybrid job not to be a copy of it. would you be happy to see a new job after 3 years only to see that it was just a copy?

there is no difference between saying that cor should be competing with rng in DD and rdm should be kicking ass with their swords. "hey! pirates use guns so why the low skill?!1!?1". it is all about specialty. pirates are not supposed to be that accurate with guns in the first place just like how fencers are not supposed be kicking ass up and down with their pointy sticks.

the point is rdm was created as a fencer playing with magic in mind and so it needs some touch to make it so. the actual point of the thread isn't "rdm sucks on melee, give us this, give us that so we can go pew pew" but it is getting derailed to exactly that. being a part of this, although apparently i am the person here who looks at the matter in a different way, i am sorry OP. i am out.

-end of transmission-