AMMO! please

[Mirage]

what is this i dont even............

Early in the game is the only time throwing is good and when it should be used. Up to lvl 40 throwing shurikens so badly outparses every other damage dealing aspect in the game. At 40 the NIN ni spells are a bit better I believe, but its been so long I forget now, a bit later it's back to throwing til you can get haste gear. And at low lvls, the shurikens sold by NPCs are pretty cheap! And ninjas always attacked super fast, it's just gotten 10% DW (af3+2 mask, and a job trait) and 0 or 4% haste since the introduction of abyssea. (depending on if you used the lvl 50 nin ring) Which is a lot, but not as much as people seem to think.

Since abyssea, sure. How much more haste and DW can you have now, compared to for example what you could get in 2004-2005? And in addition to that, maybe didn't have both 2x march and haste spell at the same time.

Look, I'm not trying to argue that throwing is better or has been better for a very long time. Is it really so implausible that the evolution of the ninja job could have been a bit different if throwing was cheaper?

I never played nin back when it was new myself, I didn't even have the game until CoP came out. I do however know a few who were pretty pro nins, and they've told me throwing was good for "as long as you could afford it". Perhaps not in a max haste scenario, but there was (and still is, to a lesser degree) plenty of cases where you weren't at capped, or near capped haste.

So if this is completely wrong, well I guess my sources suck then.

[Romanova]

Early in the game is the only time throwing is good and when it should be used. Up to lvl 40 throwing shurikens so badly outparses every other damage dealing aspect in the game.

I think you're misunderstanding Mirage. Early in the game ie 2005 vs. levels 1-40.

You are 100% correct that throwing would be a huge dps loss at this point in time. Mirage is also 100% correct though that when nin was first introduced back in 2005(?) (forget the year, it's been awhile) no one used throwing because the shukirens were insanely expensive/hard to get. Back them iirc they did insane dps if they used them, but would cost way too much, so from the beginning that is why nin's didn't use throwing, but now it's changed that they don't use it because of dps loss.

Really, it doesn't matter either way. I'd rather not they buff throwing anyways because I spend enough on tools as it is. (and my poor inventory).

[Mirage]

Yeah, well according to the guy I've talked to, they didn't stop being good at 40. Now I can understand perfectly fine that they probably weren't worth it when you had a shitload of haste from support jobs, but that's not always. So i guess it was situational, like always!

[Romanova]

Yeah, well according to the guy I've talked to, they didn't stop being good at 40. Now I can understand perfectly fine that they probably weren't worth it when you had a shitload of haste from support jobs, but that's not always. So i guess it was situational, like always!

I think part of that too might have been misconception. Nin for the first few years were fulltime evasion, and it took quite awhile for some nins to start convincing others that they could be good in DD gear and still tank small stuff. Then it began transitioning to the haste gear.

Things like parsers really started to help them see what kind of dps they could actually do vs. what people were assuming they could do. Shurikens probably were doing bursts of dmg that eva nins couldn't do on their swings, but ya insanely expensive at that so just wasn't worth it.

[Machazareel]

It's not so much that they were exclusive to melee. You didn't just stand there spamming /shoot. Their use was in weaving them with melee, with rather precise timing, as decent amounts of haste were not an easy thing to come by in any way back then until you were already 75. Unfortunately, once you hit your mid-40s, availability of new shurikens had tapered off and the damage dealt by the ones obtainable was too low to be worthwhile. You get access to Fuma's at 60, but they were so ridiculously rare that they couldn't work. You were also beginning to fight higher eva mobs at that level range, like Torama's and such, and macro'ing in RA gear to get the shots to connect over and over again was like walking uphill in blizzard, particularly due to the fact that minor lag could cause the swaps to negatively affect your melee swings, thereby defeating the purpose.

Had we had more access to more shuriken upgrades, and far easier avenues of attaining them, along with sushi(Didn't have that back then, either D:!), their viability would have been maintained far longer, as the dps of properly executed shurikens was quite high.

[wish12oz]

Since abyssea, sure. How much more haste and DW can you have now, compared to for example what you could get in 2004-2005? And in addition to that, maybe didn't have both 2x march and haste spell at the same time.

Fumas, b haidate, speed belt, dusk gloves, w turban, lvl 50 4 haste ring = 25% gear haste. (26% haste listed in gear)
Remove the ring and add dusk+1 and you get 23%.
This is what was available with the release of ToA, in 2005? Before this you used panther mask+1 with was 3% haste instead of 5%.

DW traits at 75 are 30%, then you gain 10% from af1 body and suppanomimi.

Ninja gained no haste depending on setup, and 10% DW from another job trait and af3+2 hat, I already said that, you even quoted it.

I never played nin back when it was new myself, I didn't even have the game until CoP came out. I do however know a few who were pretty pro nins, and they've told me throwing was good for "as long as you could afford it". Perhaps not in a max haste scenario, but there was (and still is, to a lesser degree) plenty of cases where you weren't at capped, or near capped haste.

So if this is completely wrong, well I guess my sources suck then.

Meleeing beats throwing with nothing but gear haste and DW starting at 75.

I think you're misunderstanding Mirage. Early in the game ie 2005 vs. levels 1-40.

I actually went over how Ninja hasn't gained much haste/dw it has available to it since 2005.

no one used throwing because the shukirens were insanely expensive/hard to get.

Maybe our ideas of expensive and hard to get are different, because I didn't think they were expensive or hard to get.

[Romanova]

I actually went over how Ninja hasn't gained much haste/dw it has available to it since 2005.

I never said they didn't have access, just that the rule of thought at the time was to stack evasion.

Maybe our ideas of expensive and hard to get are different, because I didn't think they were expensive or hard to get.

It's possible, or also could be server differences. iirc 1 stack on Asura was about 100k~ at the time, which wasn't worth utilizing to most people.


Again, I'm not trying to say your wrong. Just that I remember then nin's weredefinitely complaining about them stating "they're too expensive I wish I could afford them" vs. "they aren't worth it 'cause their dps sucks".

As I said in my other post, some of those statements were definitely based of misconception from lack of parsers, vs. fact, however it does remain the same that people at that time didn't want to use them because of price, not because they thought it was a dps loss (even though it was proven otherwise at a later date.)


In other words, you need to separate what we know now vs. what we thought we knew then if we're going to talk about what nins thought then.

[Sparthos]

SE doesn't care about ranged people.

[Duelle]

The biggest problem with Oberon's Bullets hasn't quite been addressed. Yes, it does require multiple synths (which sucks), and selling them as singles was popular early on (which also sucks), but all of the synthing would have been worth it for a Consumable market if it weren't for one thing:

Fool's Gold Ore only drops from Campaign Unions.

Yeah...

Fix ridiculously tedious/impossible to get materials and you'll fix (or at least considerably help) the ammunition market.

This. Most consumables are a pain as is because of the materials required. Feel bad for CORs and RNGs because of this clear flaw in design.

[noodles355]

Current ammo sucks to make - Multiple crafts or expensive/rare materials

The demmand for ammunition is very low - RNG has some serious design flaws. COR can be played as a PR/QD bitch only. Only die-hard COR and RNG play the jobs properly.

One of the problems with RNG and COR (One of the many for RNG) is the lack of available ammunition. This leads to less people playing the job. This further leads to even less demand for ammunition, which leads to even less being created. And it goes on.

It's a similar vicious cycle to why Ranger is continuing to not get a proper Fix. People have been driven away from the job - the cost is too high, the ammo is too difficult to obtain, the damage is sub-par, the benefit of outside-AoE damage is flawed. Because of this, hardly anyone plays it.

Rng is severly flawed > Hardly anyone plays it > Hardly anyone gives feedback to SE > SE don't realise there is a problem > SE doesn't fix Rng > Rng continues to be flawed > People continue to not play it > SE continue to not realise there is a problem.

The same is true for COR, but at least they can fallback on being a Phantom Roll bitch.