AMMO! please

[Mirage]

The good ones were!

[wish12oz]

The good ones were!

Good shurikens being hard to get has nothing to do with the fact that you lose 6+ attacks worth of damage and tp gain to throw 1 shuriken. The shuriken would need to do more damage then 6 attacks, and gain more tp then 6 attacks to even be useful, and guess what, they don't do that much. So regardless of difficulty to obtain, throwing was still terrible. Even if shurikens were added with 300 base damage, and cost 1gil/stack, it wouldn't be worth the inventory to carry them around or worth the loss of DPS to use them.

Here's the math:

Shurikens have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay. (this is what I use and is best ATM, so this is the delay we will use for purposes of mathing out delay)
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.

25% gear haste, 50% DW, marchx2 and haste spell is all that's required to reach -80% delay btw~
Those things are also really easy to get on NIN.

[Mirage]

Stuff

Throwing not taking off isn't something that happened within the last year or two. There was a time in this game when ninjas didn't actually attack 500 times per second like now.

Who knows, had it been affordable from the beginning of, maybe more people would have liked it, leading to SE improving it more over the years. Seeing as historically no one bothered with it because it was like throwing solid gold bars at the enemies, it only makes sense that SE improved ninja's melee capabilities more than their ranged capabilities.

For the record, I'm not suggesting that we nerf haste. Trying to give nin a reason to use shuriken now is probably a lost cause, but if it was taken care of when the job was still young, it wouldn't necessarily have had to turn out that way.

[wish12oz]

Throwing not taking off isn't something that happened within the last year or two. There was a time in this game when ninjas didn't actually attack 500 times per second like now.

Who knows, had it been affordable from the beginning of, maybe more people would have liked it, leading to SE improving it more over the years. Seeing as historically no one bothered with it because it was like throwing solid gold bars at the enemies, it only makes sense that SE improved ninja's melee capabilities more than their ranged capabilities.

what is this i dont even............

Early in the game is the only time throwing is good and when it should be used. Up to lvl 40 throwing shurikens so badly outparses every other damage dealing aspect in the game. At 40 the NIN ni spells are a bit better I believe, but its been so long I forget now, a bit later it's back to throwing til you can get haste gear. And at low lvls, the shurikens sold by NPCs are pretty cheap! And ninjas always attacked super fast, it's just gotten 10% DW (af3+2 mask, and a job trait) and 0 or 4% haste since the introduction of abyssea. (depending on if you used the lvl 50 nin ring) Which is a lot, but not as much as people seem to think.

[Karbuncle]

Durpity

Agreed!

Also, Looking at the "new posts section", Does anyone but me feel like we've run off the Reps? I miss them.

[Mirage]

what is this i dont even............

Early in the game is the only time throwing is good and when it should be used. Up to lvl 40 throwing shurikens so badly outparses every other damage dealing aspect in the game. At 40 the NIN ni spells are a bit better I believe, but its been so long I forget now, a bit later it's back to throwing til you can get haste gear. And at low lvls, the shurikens sold by NPCs are pretty cheap! And ninjas always attacked super fast, it's just gotten 10% DW (af3+2 mask, and a job trait) and 0 or 4% haste since the introduction of abyssea. (depending on if you used the lvl 50 nin ring) Which is a lot, but not as much as people seem to think.

Since abyssea, sure. How much more haste and DW can you have now, compared to for example what you could get in 2004-2005? And in addition to that, maybe didn't have both 2x march and haste spell at the same time.

Look, I'm not trying to argue that throwing is better or has been better for a very long time. Is it really so implausible that the evolution of the ninja job could have been a bit different if throwing was cheaper?

I never played nin back when it was new myself, I didn't even have the game until CoP came out. I do however know a few who were pretty pro nins, and they've told me throwing was good for "as long as you could afford it". Perhaps not in a max haste scenario, but there was (and still is, to a lesser degree) plenty of cases where you weren't at capped, or near capped haste.

So if this is completely wrong, well I guess my sources suck then.

[wish12oz]

Since abyssea, sure. How much more haste and DW can you have now, compared to for example what you could get in 2004-2005? And in addition to that, maybe didn't have both 2x march and haste spell at the same time.

Fumas, b haidate, speed belt, dusk gloves, w turban, lvl 50 4 haste ring = 25% gear haste. (26% haste listed in gear)
Remove the ring and add dusk+1 and you get 23%.
This is what was available with the release of ToA, in 2005? Before this you used panther mask+1 with was 3% haste instead of 5%.

DW traits at 75 are 30%, then you gain 10% from af1 body and suppanomimi.

Ninja gained no haste depending on setup, and 10% DW from another job trait and af3+2 hat, I already said that, you even quoted it.

I never played nin back when it was new myself, I didn't even have the game until CoP came out. I do however know a few who were pretty pro nins, and they've told me throwing was good for "as long as you could afford it". Perhaps not in a max haste scenario, but there was (and still is, to a lesser degree) plenty of cases where you weren't at capped, or near capped haste.

So if this is completely wrong, well I guess my sources suck then.

Meleeing beats throwing with nothing but gear haste and DW starting at 75.

I think you're misunderstanding Mirage. Early in the game ie 2005 vs. levels 1-40.

I actually went over how Ninja hasn't gained much haste/dw it has available to it since 2005.

no one used throwing because the shukirens were insanely expensive/hard to get.

Maybe our ideas of expensive and hard to get are different, because I didn't think they were expensive or hard to get.

[Romanova]

I actually went over how Ninja hasn't gained much haste/dw it has available to it since 2005.

I never said they didn't have access, just that the rule of thought at the time was to stack evasion.

Maybe our ideas of expensive and hard to get are different, because I didn't think they were expensive or hard to get.

It's possible, or also could be server differences. iirc 1 stack on Asura was about 100k~ at the time, which wasn't worth utilizing to most people.


Again, I'm not trying to say your wrong. Just that I remember then nin's weredefinitely complaining about them stating "they're too expensive I wish I could afford them" vs. "they aren't worth it 'cause their dps sucks".

As I said in my other post, some of those statements were definitely based of misconception from lack of parsers, vs. fact, however it does remain the same that people at that time didn't want to use them because of price, not because they thought it was a dps loss (even though it was proven otherwise at a later date.)


In other words, you need to separate what we know now vs. what we thought we knew then if we're going to talk about what nins thought then.

[Romanova]

Early in the game is the only time throwing is good and when it should be used. Up to lvl 40 throwing shurikens so badly outparses every other damage dealing aspect in the game.

I think you're misunderstanding Mirage. Early in the game ie 2005 vs. levels 1-40.

You are 100% correct that throwing would be a huge dps loss at this point in time. Mirage is also 100% correct though that when nin was first introduced back in 2005(?) (forget the year, it's been awhile) no one used throwing because the shukirens were insanely expensive/hard to get. Back them iirc they did insane dps if they used them, but would cost way too much, so from the beginning that is why nin's didn't use throwing, but now it's changed that they don't use it because of dps loss.

Really, it doesn't matter either way. I'd rather not they buff throwing anyways because I spend enough on tools as it is. (and my poor inventory).