Concerns about SCH.

[Sotek]

Remove the enmity bonus from Cure V/VI all together and give White Mage a job trait that does exactly the same thing, that was pretty much the first thing I posted on these forums lol.

Scholar rivaling White Mage and Black Mage doesn't seem like much of an issue to me. It's not better than either, and in both cases what other competition do they have? Compare that to Damage Dealers and it seems unfair to give them no competition at all and have them as vital jobs.

[Bubeeky]

I like that idea of giving whm an enmity down trait

My problem with them rivalling us is that traditionally, the balance for mages is focus/variety...whms and blms focus on one type of magic to surpass all others in it, in exchange for a lack of variety, like whm's complete lack of nukes lol Sch kinda violates this balance imo, as they have a wide variety of abilities and still have a focus on each to give a pure mage a run for their money.

Honestly, I'd support more uniqueness among melees too. My only experience with melee is an on again off again relationship with my DNC90 lol so I couldn't even begin to make suggestions there, but the point is that I think every job should be rewarded with one thing that they do that no one else can so I'd support that kind of thing regardless of if it's whm or sch or not. Every job should have one area where there's no competition for 'em.

Incidentally, that sig of yours really makes me want to watch anime and eat strawberry shortcake.

[Merton9999]

I'd rather the bulk of SCH additions be unique abilities, but I still think the one spell we need from other jobs, except the rest of the tier V nukes, is Cure V.

It's been mentioned here how to remove the special enmity property on Cure V and still let WHM retain it: change the spell's formula to follow the normal progression of Cure 1-4, then give WHM a trait that reduces enmity for higher tier spells. It gives PLD an additional hate tool and cure spell, and it means SCH and RDM need to be concerned about hate, while WHM Cure V behavior is unchanged.

If the main jobs are supposed to far outshine the hybrids, it leaves the hybrid almost useless in that role. I like the comparison between SCH and BLM - with a total focus on nuking SCH can be on par with BLM with the correct gear and intelligent use of JAs. Those too things are crucial to maintain that close comparison between SCH and BLM. To me, that's the point of the job - it can be a great nuker, if you do a few more things than a BLM has to to make it happen. It can be a great healer if....

Well, no, it really can't atm. The WHM and SCH comparison is nowhere near as close for the reasons many people have stated. Enmity and lack of a strong cure spell are huge concerns. I don't know of any way currently to mitigate this. The tools to do so (Rapture, animus, AF3 gown enhancement) are too weak atm.

Really, all I'm asking is that SCH be made to heal on par or almost on par with WHM, so it is a suitable substitute for either BLM or WHM, not just BLM. I don't care if they do it with Cure V or some other unique JA/trait/gear. In fact, I'd actually prefer SE bring SCH closer to an adequate main healer with something other than Cure V. Cure V is just the easiest way to do it. Given their past record on SCH, I fully expect some rise in healing power through a unique new mechanism. Not that much uniqueness has come in the past level cap raise additions, but I'm still hoping, at least for SCH.

To make up for being nearly as potent as either job, I like the concept of SCH additionally being able to maintain balance in a party, or increase other jobs' potency. Animus, Storms and Regain are a great concept for doing this, but they are severely underwhelming and underpowered in their current state, to the point that no one really cares if a SCH uses them.

In the end, my first request for the job is to buff up light arts in some unique way so that SCH can come close to WHM, or be on par with intelligent gear choices and JAs. My second request is to buff up the spells used to maintain balance and potency for other jobs, namely storms, animus, adloquium potency, and a longer range on Libra. Third, unbreak MV with either a one-minute timer or a return to its old behavior, along with an inability to stack it past, say, 2-5 applications.

[Rambus]

Remove the enmity bonus from Cure V/VI all together and give White Mage a job trait that does exactly the same thing, that was pretty much the first thing I posted on these forums lol.

Scholar rivaling White Mage and Black Mage doesn't seem like much of an issue to me. It's not better than either, and in both cases what other competition do they have? Compare that to Damage Dealers and it seems unfair to give them no competition at all and have them as vital jobs.

I did too but i madde the extra note of that trait.

it would work outside of enmity caps

Job MAIN should not be same power as sub.

if PLD, RDM SCH does not get cure V it just shows SE is stuck on level 75 mindset ( though there is other proof of this fact)

THE OLNY way around NOT giving those jobs cure V is letting healing magic mean something. in otherwords sub would be stuck at 400 ish cure IV while main jobs can hit 600 ish base because of skill

do meny caps in this game that only works at 75

[Fiarlia]

I only read the first 4-5 pages, but didn't see it mentioned yet and figured I would.

Helix Adjustments: helices are one of SCH's most usefull spells, and one of their strongest, but I'd like to see alittle more changes or gear enhancements toward them, MaB has little to absolutly no effect on Helix, it's soley based off INT that enhances it's based damage,

This is plain wrong, MAB affects Helices, just not as much as regular nukes. In fact, if you do the maths (depending on your gear) 1 MAB is roughly equal to 1 INT for the Helix spells.

I say roughly because gear/food/atma/buffs could possibly swing the pendulum in the favor of INT or MAB very easily, though the difference would not be large.

[Ahrana]

The thing that made Scholar unique at 75 was being efficient. It wasn't a cure spamming job like white mage, but it could be efficient at non-focused healing with AoE stoneskin and phalanx. It couldn't nuke as hard as black mage, but it could do more single target damage with helix spells, parsimony nukes, and the mp efficiency of black arts. To me, scholar was a job specifically balanced for play at 75, but since the level cap was increased the efficiency balance that scholar had was tossed out on it's ear.

Inside abyssea stoneskin doesn't absorb a significant portion of damage, phalanx is largely worthless, and mp efficient nuking has been replaced with ridiculous mp refresh and nuke button mashing. Unless they add some significant spells to the scholar arsenal, the only thing that will bring scholar back up to level is content outside of abyssea where MP is a limiting factor again.

[Miera]

Yeah, the only reason why SCHs were such good healers outside of Abyssea was the fact we could conserve our MP efficiently. We had Sublimation and Alacrity, Penury, Stoneskin, Phalanx and Regen. We had the ability to sustain People's Health without having to Cure bomb the entire party and take hate and or lose large amounts of MP.

This was all XP parties outside abyssea where it took a lot to break stoneskin and Phalanx was actually migating a lot of damage and Regen actually did something.

Inside of Abyssea is a whole other thing where you have three alliances to take care of where you can't just go out Accession Stoneskin Phalanxe Regen III all 36 people and expect things will be okay (Which by the way is only party target able spells). That doesn't work anymore. Mobs break through stoneskin fairly easy, even with Phalanx up you still can get your face beat in pretty badly and I don't see much of a difference with Regen III

We need a better option here. Even with Mind atma in Light arts using Light Arts enhancing gear Aurastorm Spell and Subing WHM my Cures are still 470-500ish a cure and that doesn't cut it anymore. We aren't competing, we never did. Outside of Abyssea without the atmas Our nukes don't come near as damaging as a BLM and our Cures still doesn't outcure a WHM so I don't see your problem here.

I agree with the others, Either we get Cure V or we get a Light Arts Buff to boost Cure Potency.

[Ahrana]

We aren't competing, we never did. Outside of Abyssea without the atmas Our nukes don't come near as damaging as a BLM and our Cures still doesn't outcure a WHM so I don't see your problem here.

Well, I never really saw us as a replacement for a white mage at HNM's, but we could be a substitute for a red mage in a lot of situations (Nyzul, xp parties, some salvage, etc). But back before abyssea scholar could actually beat blm's on single target damage at many HNM fights. While blm's could nuke for more damage per spell, scholar could cast a lot more spells. When you can toss out 50% more spells on a single bar of mp it doesn't matter that you're nuking for a little less.

With the atma buffs being efficient with nukes no longer matters, because mp is no longer the limiting factor. You're far more likely to run out of hp before you run out of mp.

[Rambus]

I only read the first 4-5 pages, but didn't see it mentioned yet and figured I would.



This is plain wrong, MAB affects Helices, just not as much as regular nukes. In fact, if you do the maths (depending on your gear) 1 MAB is roughly equal to 1 INT for the Helix spells.

I say roughly because gear/food/atma/buffs could possibly swing the pendulum in the favor of INT or MAB very easily, though the difference would not be large.

1 int > 1 mab till your 75 int over target.

75 int above it is exactly the same

76 and over 1 int is very slightly better ( i am sure you will not see the difference reflected very well till you are about 86 int over or so, then I can recommend 1 mab > 1 int.

unless you are brewing or something i would tell people just do 1 int > 1 mab, you are going to be very hard pressed to do 1 mab > 2 int. you might have a debate if you find a gear agurment where you are doing 1 int > 1.5 mab, i do not know a gear slot where that ratio exists though. because of gear and realistic limitations it is just best to use 1 int > 1 mab

getting 86 int over target can't be easy even in abyssea ( imps the highest common mob outside abyssea, to my Knowalge, has 110 int)

[Saefinn]

I'm in support of:

Cure V (we'll prolly get it anyway)
Weather II or improved weather - perhaps a stratagem or JA to enhance them
Helix II

and any other exclusive spells.

We see the different mage jobs being a master of something:
White Mage: Healing
Black Mage: Nuking
Red Mage: Enhancing and Enfeebling (as well as being a jack of all trades)

I think Scholar has its potential really in its 'over time' spells, it's MP efficiency and hate management. One really good thing about Scholar is that it's MP efficient - sublimation allows you to keep your MP up, Dark/Light Arts already offers reductions, you have conserve MP and Parsimony/Penury, with Rapture/Ebullience you're probably going to save on casting a few spells over all and even though you have larger MP costs with Accession/Manifestation if played well, they can save you MP too.

Then Scholar gets Regen and Regen II first, which can be AoE'd and gradually heal your allies, giving you space to strike - striking with a nuke might hurt your MP more as well as cause hate. To compare 2 of my spells:
Stone IV - Recast 30 seconds, 124mp cost (Dark Arts), 62 (Dark Arts + Parsimony)
Geohelix - Lasts for 60 seconds, 78mp cost (Dark Arts), 39 (Dark Arts + Parsimony)

Roughly (at my level/skill/gear):
Stone IV hits 600-900
Geohelix hit 100-150 every 9 seconds for around 1 minute, which adds to 600-900 (maybe more, it's 6/7 hits), the spell can be enhanced by Modus Veritas.

So whilst Geohelix will be slower than a nuke to do its overall damage, it is more MP friendly and avoids enmity. You might want to nuke on top, just extra damage within those 1 min time periods. Or helices can be useful if you're main healer - AoE Regen spell -> Helix -> Cure, you're dealing damage whilst being a healer without the penalties of a nuke. Focusing on our exclusives will mean stepping less on the toes of BLM and WHM, as I don't think we need to compete with them. Helices, Regens (if we get another tier) and weather spells I think are the right direction, especially as it means more focus on keeping the job a little more unique. There's no point in making jobs too similar.