Mud Spikes, Wind Spikes, and Aqua Spikes

[Kensagaku]

Alright, first off, I feel that noodles has a relevant argument. If you consider spikes as "defensive spells" then there is indeed one for each element. You bring up haste, sneak, invis, and deodorize, but these are not defensive spells. The first is an offensive augment, and the latter three are for stealth. I feel light is a general gray area simply because of the fact that it's all protective magic in the long run. Protect and shell lines, regens, phalanx, etc. With this analogy in mind I do feel that they have a strong argument in their favor.

However (and this is bolded so you don't start replying to just the first part; not saying you will but people with strong opinions tend to just immediately go after counter-views without reading the rest):

I do feel your argument has merit too. Why not add some more spikes? I could certainly see how they would be useful. At the same time though, I feel that added effects on all of them is unnecessary. Look at Blaze Spikes and Reprisal; both of these have no added effect on the enemy. They simply do damage as retaliation. Aqua Spikes with their Poison I could see; Earth Spikes inflicting slow might be a bit OP situationally, but for the most part I don't have anything against them. I feel that Wind Spikes is something that is more set to be just pure damage. So there is merit to your suggestions too, and maybe with a bit of tweaking they could be viable.

Now, this is gonna come off as attacking, and I apologize if it does, but that is not my intent. I feel that you are being overly aggressive and zealous about your point, to the point you are making sarcastic or blunt arguments. Everyone has their opinion, and just because they disagree with you does not mean that they're trying to beat you down. You've made several valid points, but I feel that the way in which you address them comes off badly. Take a moment to step back and calm down; maybe you two will find a compromise, or perhaps will find evidence that makes the other say "Okay, I see your point, it could indeed be valid."

This is a suggestions thread, guys. We make suggestion, we discuss which are plausible and not and why we feel that way, and if the Devs see something in it, they'll snap it right up. But let's keep it civil, yeah?

[Zyeriis]

Alright, first off, I feel that noodles has a relevant argument. If you consider spikes as "defensive spells" then there is indeed one for each element. You bring up haste, sneak, invis, and deodorize, but these are not defensive spells. The first is an offensive augment, and the latter three are for stealth. I feel light is a general gray area simply because of the fact that it's all protective magic in the long run. Protect and shell lines, regens, phalanx, etc. With this analogy in mind I do feel that they have a strong argument in their favor.

However (and this is bolded so you don't start replying to just the first part; not saying you will but people with strong opinions tend to just immediately go after counter-views without reading the rest):

I do feel your argument has merit too. Why not add some more spikes? I could certainly see how they would be useful. At the same time though, I feel that added effects on all of them is unnecessary. Look at Blaze Spikes and Reprisal; both of these have no added effect on the enemy. They simply do damage as retaliation. Aqua Spikes with their Poison I could see; Earth Spikes inflicting slow might be a bit OP situationally, but for the most part I don't have anything against them. I feel that Wind Spikes is something that is more set to be just pure damage. So there is merit to your suggestions too, and maybe with a bit of tweaking they could be viable.

Now, this is gonna come off as attacking, and I apologize if it does, but that is not my intent. I feel that you are being overly aggressive and zealous about your point, to the point you are making sarcastic or blunt arguments. Everyone has their opinion, and just because they disagree with you does not mean that they're trying to beat you down. You've made several valid points, but I feel that the way in which you address them comes off badly. Take a moment to step back and calm down; maybe you two will find a compromise, or perhaps will find evidence that makes the other say "Okay, I see your point, it could indeed be valid."

This is a suggestions thread, guys. We make suggestion, we discuss which are plausible and not and why we feel that way, and if the Devs see something in it, they'll snap it right up. But let's keep it civil, yeah?

Not going to argue with you about how I responded. First response from other person I viewed and still view as rude and I responded in kind. That's not going to change (the viewed as a blatantly rude knock down response part is not going to change).

Blaze Spikes is the first spikes spell, so I thought it was a legitimate enough reason to it not having anything other damage to it. That being said, these higher level spikes should have more to them or do good chunks of damage. The problem is, the damage would have to be significant to showcase their individuality, and thats where I feel they could truly become overpowered. The status effects are luck based in the end, so ultimately less prone to abuse. As for reprisal, it does in fact do more than just damage the enemy. It increases shield usage (like a shield skill+ trait) in a significant manner.

I've reviewed the argument about the wind spikes and came up with an alternative idea. However, this may sound potentially overpowered as well. Since haste is wind based, why not add a self-target haste proc from enemy attacks to wind spikes instead? This would make wind spikes wholly unique in that it would result in a buff rather than a debuff. The same can be said for mud/stone spikes adding stoneskin (much like some NMs who gather stoneskin based upon how much damage is dealt to them when they do something). I wouldn't do this for water spikes + aquaveil as that just sounds way too weak and would rather stick with the poison idea.

I am going to slightly retract my statement that noodle was being completely non-constructive as it did spark this alternative idea, to tie them in with the other enhancing magics of the same element.

As for the haste argument about it being another wind based defensive magic. It still is, it just has offensive boosts as well. It does speed up recast timers mind you, which can be used for self-preservation just like stoneskin and blink and even more so, aquaveil, which affects spell interruption.

[Rambus]

Invisible, Sneak, Deodorize, are wind based.
Haste is wind based also. Where does this fit in? Is this another "exception" just because it doesn't fit in with what you are saying?
You can argue that those are different types of enhancing magic but, isn't that the point I'm trying to make?

(I won't deny the invis/sneak comparison is a bad one but the haste one isn't)

agreed she is molding information to suit her agurment, and i do not like that. It is a false view and she is trying to say anything so she is not "wrong"

her saying light is a "no element", are you joking? i guess a light skillchain or a trasfixion skillchain has no element:

Light:
Protect
Protect II
Protect III
Protect IV
Protect V
protectra
protectra II
protectra III
protectra IV
protectra V
Shell
Shell II
Shell III
Shell IV
Shell V
shellra
shellra II
shellra III
shellra IV
shellra V
Barblindra
barblind
Barsleep
Barsleepra
Phalanx
Phalanx II
regen
regen II
regen III
Regen IV
refresh
Refersh II
Reraise
Reraise II
Reraise III
Seline coat
Army's paeon
Army's paeon II
Army's paeon III
Army's paeon IV
Army's paeon V
Army's paeon VI
Mage's ballad
Mage's ballad II
Mage's ballad III
Fowl Aubade
Shining Fantasia
Warding round
Enchamting Etude
Dark carol
Goddess's Hymnus
Bewitching Etude
Auspice
Aurorastorm
Battery charge
Regeneration
Enlight
Boost-CHR
Foe Sirvente
Adverturer's dirge
Reprisal
Animus Minuo
Adloquium
Gain-CHR
Myoshu: Ichi

Dark:
Light Carol
Dread spikes
Voidstorm
Klimaform
Magic Barrier
Animus Augeo
Endark

Fire:
Barblizzard
Barblizzara
Barparalyze
Barparalyzra
Enfire
Enfire II
Blaze spikes
Valor Minuet
Valor Minuet II
Valor Minuet III
Valor Minuet IV
Valor Minuet V
Goblin Gavotte
Sinewy Etude
Herculean etude
Ice carol
firestorm
Triumphant roar
Fantod

Earth:
Stoneskin
Barthunder
Barthundra
Enstone
Enstone II
Metallic body
Cocoon
Warm-up
Diamondhide
Knight's mine....

ok i am tried of doing this, look there is like 6 forms of stoneskin (maybe there is 7 since rampart conflits with stoneskin *something Conflicted with it after update and i do not remember what it was and if it was changed, i think it is stoneskin*), 3 haste, 1 blaze spikes, 2 forms of shock spikes, 2 forms of ice spikes so how can you sit here and say aquaviel counts for water midgration ( when you have water based bars and bard buffs) earth "spikes" is stoneskin when there is 6 forms of it, and wind covering blink when there is 4 forms of blink and 2 utsusemis that are wind, 3 forms of haste, then you have invisible, sneak, deodorize, feather barrier, mazurka, and other such buffs you have not thought about because it does not suit your view?

there is no such thing as one element having too meny buffs so it cannot fit

[Tamarsamar]

For what it's worth, I share noodles' sentiment of Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, and Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin were parts of similar cycles of spells, generally available between levels 10-30 to Black Mages and White Mages. If one were to "complete the Spikes line," then I don't see any reason why the Aqua/Blink/Skin line shouldn't be "completed" in kind.

[Rambus]

For what it's worth, I share noodles' sentiment of Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, and Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin were parts of similar cycles of spells, generally available between levels 10-30 to Black Mages and White Mages. If one were to "complete the Spikes line," then I don't see any reason why the Aqua/Blink/Skin line shouldn't be "completed" in kind.

because you are forgetting there is more forms of said buffs then others, also there is more elements that exists for buffs then you are accounting for. /point to post above you.

did you know there is that meny forms of blink? stoneskin? more then one ice and shock spike spell but only one blaze spikes?

[Tamarsamar]

If you would stop treating noodles and I like idiots for a moment, you would see that we're not really contesting your points.

Yes, there are many different buffs across many different elements, and even multiple ways of getting the same effect provided by spells of different names (we can mostly thank Blue Mage and Summoner for this), but what do they have to do with the Blaze/Ice/Shock Spikes line of spells and the Aquaveil/Blink/Stoneskin line of spells specifically? (It is worth mentioning that I am referring specifically to the spells of those names, and not the status effects that they provide which they are named for.)

[Zyeriis]

For what it's worth, I share noodles' sentiment of Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, and Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin were parts of similar cycles of spells, generally available between levels 10-30 to Black Mages and White Mages. If one were to "complete the Spikes line," then I don't see any reason why the Aqua/Blink/Skin line shouldn't be "completed" in kind.

I've said the last line of this before. They could very well complete the defensive (not actually "spikes") side as well. Hmm, all that remains really is to figure out an idea for each of those 3 elements: fire, lightning, and ice.

I guess I'll take a stab at it but be warned that this is an off the top of my head idea stream.

Ice could have a spell similar to Blink, that procs randomly and only a set number of times (perhaps once). The effect would be Reflect, where a spell casted upon the player gets returned in kind automatically (though randomly) to the enemy that casted it. Dangers here are if the enemy casts an AoE spell, you may wind up surrounded by multiple enemies, caution is urged when using this.

Lightning could be a Potency spell (Critical hit Rate +) or Faith spell (Increases magical attack).

Fire could be a Bravery Spell (Attack Boost Spell) or Morale spell (slightly boosts all stats for a short amount of time).

[Rambus]

Water Spikes is called Aquaviel
Earth Spikes is called Stoneskin
Wind Spikes is called Blink

This looks rude to me, stating opion as fact.

spikes overide one anther, you cannot have reprisal and ice spikes for exmaple

but you can have aquaviel, stoneskin, and a spike effect spell.

there is 5 or 6 different forms of stoneskin, depending how you view them.

there is 4-6 different blinks ( ustu and blink are different "blinks") and conflit with 3 eye

there are other damage migration buffs for said elements that does not conflict with spike type spells

1 type of fire spikes
3 types of icespikes (forgot shiva in my last post)
2 forms of shock spikes

and all forms of said spikes conflict with each other where the other buffs do not.

Therefore it is an unfounded option.

[Kensagaku]

I like where these ideas are going. Sometimes it takes a little disagreement to come up with some truly unique and interesting thoughts, and look where this thread has gone! We've got ideas for new offensive and defensive buffs coming along. This is truly coming along well.

To point out the ideas that I've liked/come up with myself, using some text from the existing spells:

Offensive Spikes
Aqua Spikes - Covers you with magical water spikes. Enemies that hit you take water damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Poison on attacking enemies.

Gale Spikes - Covers you with magical wind spikes. Enemies that hit you take wind damage.
~Note: This would be comparable to the other spikes as blaze spikes is to ice/shock spikes at the moment; higher overall damage due to lack of additional effect.

Terra Spikes - Covers you with magical earth spikes. Enemies that hit you take earth damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Slow on attacking enemies.

Defensive Spells
Reflect (Ice-based): Creates ice mirrors that each reflect a single spell directed at you.
~Notes: The user would still take damage; otherwise this would just be a buffed Blink because blink can absorb single-targets. Would also create only two ice mirrors, identical to blink. AoEs would be reflected in an AoE around the target, which means that you'd have to be very careful with use.

Bravery (Fire-Based): Increases the attack power of one target.
~Notes: Would be affected by Accession like any other spell, making it more useful with a /SCH subjob. Would be a smaller boost based on the user's Enhancing Magic Skill but still useful.

Faith (Thunder-Based): Increases the magical attack power of one target.
~Notes: Think of this as the magical version of Bravery, adding perhaps a small amount of MAB based on the user's Enhancing Magic.


How do these ideas sound?

[Rambus]

reflect in past FF is a spell when magic is casted on you it is reflected, this means all harmful and support magic and a good way around that was to cast reflect on the mob so you can bounce cures to yourself lol.

if you have to take damage to repel the magic back to caster that is more the lines of "magic counter". this is a trait in FFIX and this is what i called what carbi do. I never understood people trying to label it reflect.

Reason I am stating this is because I am considered about the name and what it does vs past FF games. making it like past FF games would make it imbalanced unless it was long recast with only able to do it with attack spell.

Your attack buff I do not like, the reason is for my magic list post I was making. There is A LOT of fire buffing spells that buff attack and I even think you can call berserk fire support too (mighty strikes, berserk, warcry, restraint, last resort are red in menu). There is also SCH firestorm with stormsurge merits to grant STR.

If you where going to buff magic attack it would have to be ice. There is a lot of ice based buffing that buffs magic attack ( memento mori, ice staff) INT is also considered the “ice” stat. ( see gear, sage etude, and hailstorm)